oh yeah, we all know how much i'm into this discussion ;) i hate it, i whish i'd already found the one and only cheap renderer with real skin, muscles, bones and native poser import for no more than a few bucks we'll i can't tell much in here some people render good stills with bryce, and with vue i did some amazing things myself, but the render engine is horrible slow, but it's very easy to use if you are looking to develop 3d models for animation i suggest that you trash poser and get an eye on Hash Animation Master, i did not yet work with it, but from what i have seen i can say it's an insane animation tool for characters, and there've been done some pretty neat models! take a look at hash.com for more info, btw it's only $299,- and thats a great price for what it can do i've not figured out yet on how easy it is to transfer poser work to AM. btw there is another human character generation tool out there, called something like "reflex" or whatever i've seen they'r site some time, it's about modelling really close to nature, with muscles etc and realistic animation of them, but the figures don't look very beautiful yet, more than Trevor from aeon flux :) but i'll keep an eye on it -Ede