Thanks PheonixRising, my sediments exactly. Flash isn't going anywhere and it's not about to be used 'less' only more! It's a fact of life on the web, just as sure as more changes will come. The days of old plain black and white HTM are gone. Bobbie Boucher; I'm still trying to figure it all out too. I have never seen one here at Rendo.....?? Gotta agree with Slinger too. Just as I learned to write HTML and a little JS in notepad everyone goes Flash, and I can't aford it. But when it's done correctly and in good taste it sure is sweet! I still like JoeCartoon's stuff and Killfrog too, their so far out there yet so well done. There was a great group called Holiday Force for a while but things broke them up, too bad as I wanted to see the rest of the holiday super heros... :*(