Where has the free stuff gone ? Since online store is opened the free stuff section is decreasing steadily and the sold one is growing. This section had been made to help Renderosity to stay alive... good. Don't misunderstand me. I love Renderosity and i approve the online store. But i don't approve this 3DSMax like always-pay-per-view spirit. I would like to point out that in my opinion this has nothing to see with renderosity's staff but with the stuff uploaded in the online store compared to free stuff. I understand everybody wants to make a little money, but this is not the original philisophy of this Poser community. The community spirit made that site possible and i believe it is endangered by money. We are loosing what made the Poser community different from others.

Yarp, I would have to disagree with you on the point that the freestuff section is failing because of the online store. In the last week there has been 71 posts to the Freestuff section, whereas there have on been 19 new posts to the Online store. That is ALLOT of freestuff! Allot of those that are placing stuff in the Online Store, they are also posting stuff to the Freestuff. So, as I said, Yarp, I have to disagree with you. Looking at the numbers of downloads of stuff in the Freestuff area, I think allot of other people will also have to disagree. One thing for sure, Renderosity ROCKS!! :o) Jack

Until there is a way to keep a great site like this up without paying for the server space and bandwidth, I think the store has to stay. Actually the stuff that has been in the store is high quality for the most part, and I don't mind kickin down the money for it. It saves me time, so I don't mind paying for someone else's time to make something I want or need. For the most part the items in the store are more than fair in price. There is a ton of stuff in the download area, and it pretty much has something new every day. People who take the time to create models or textures are either working and this is a second income, or in some cases the only income they might have, and I don't begrudge them any money they can make. Marque

I don't know if it just because of the Renderosity Store or not. I have noticed a considerable slowdown in messages since the Fall collage sessions started. As far as the store goes, are people really making that much money? You can select "Best Sellers" to see what has sold the most, but is the quanity in the 10's, 100's or 1000's?

Jack, I just hope so, i hope so... I hesitated a long time before posting this message, just because i didn't wanted to attack anybody. I love this site and the Poser community (should i say the Renderosity community ?). I just wanted to say what i felt to see if others felt the same. I hope you're right and i'm wrong, and i still and will firmly support Renderosity. Yarp

Marque, I agree with the store, i agree to pay. I just said i felt the free stuff was slowing doing. Yarp

I think I understand where Yarp is coming from. The inception of the first Poser Forum was simple. You created something, and wanted to share it. You placed it here for all to see and use. Pride was the reward back then. Yes, there is a great deal of Freestuff being placed. But...Yarp has a point. Commercialism has crept into this place in a very strong way. Oh, I understand those who wish to make some money in their creations. (I am part owner in the family business, so I "do" understand) Art isn't free in most cases. You have to pay to get into most Art museums too. Still, in a way, the innocence of the first Forum is gone now. And yes, it has gone "very" commercial. Most messages in the Poser Forum these days refer to an item you must buy in order to enjoy. Understand, my concern in buying these things is irrelevant for myself. This is my passion, playing with my HiTech Barbie Dolls. LOL! I will spend whatever I have to for whatever I wish to buy. Some people drink, some smoke, others gamble, that's where their "mad money" goes. For me, it's here, and in those things I see that fascinate me. (PhilC's Wizardess's Robe for example...beautiful, and well worth the money). But for those who cannot shell out $25 here, $50 there, $79 for a dragon, or $59 for a new male model, it's difficult. And the old Forum was a godsend to them and myself at that time. Things of incredible beauty given freely, and when someone like Anton Kesiel, spending hours planning, constructing, tweaking something like his lovely dragon would place it here for us all to use, you knew it was from the heart. Now, I see many things that are just bait, some only take you halfway there, urging you to buy the rest, while others simply ignore you if your not with cash. You are right Jack, there is a lot of new in FreeStuff. I have plans for the new TeePee that's there. It looks very well done. But still...things have changed. Some think for the better, others like Yarp, and myself at times, often remember the past. Most of us were rookies back then, worshipping the likes of Mobius, Roy Riggs, Anton, many others who showed us the way. We move on now. Things change, and we must adapt. You cannot do anything about yesterday...it's gone. Tommorow isn't here yet. You must deal with today, for it is now and commands attention. Still...sometimes it's sad to remember.

Vethril, you're rigth all the line. It is for sure inevitable that Renderosity will change... The little, the better.

Putting in my two cents worth, I agree somewhat with Yarp. when I first started to come to the Renderosity, the free stuff area was filled with stuff that I wanted and could use. Now, it seems that a lot of the stuff there is fluff or freebies for someone who wants you to buy the bigger, better version. I am not saying that people shouldn't make money. I am all for it. But at the same time I am on a very tight budget. If I have 25 dollars left after paying the bills, that's all I have for the entire month. I am not complaining, but that is the way it is. I've got a wishlist for the store if and when I get a few bucks ahead. I find it annoying sometimes to read a message and find that all it is a commerical. How about a new forum for people who have stuff to sell in the store? Call it Commerical Alley or something. Like Yarp, I do love the place and have a lot of fun here! Let's not get so wrapped up in making a dollar that the fun goes bye bye. Jack, I know running a neat site like this cost the big bucks. I also know that the store is helping you make those bucks to keep the place up and going. What it might boil down to on my part is simply envy, of not being able to have all the toys that I want. I hope that I am bigger than that. But darn it. I do like my toys! So what ever you need to do, keep it doing. I had rather have the site than the toys. butch

I might as well put in my two cents worth too. I remember the old forum. I also miss it. When the forum split, the other half went for the non-commercial route. But that forum was highly regulated and freedom to say what you want to say was taken away. If you didn't see it the way of the narrators, you couldn't post it. On the other hand, renderosity has given us the freedom to say almost anything we feel. I come here 20 times for each visit to the other site. Freedom to me is more important than free stuff. Also, I haven't seen many better free things at the other forum. I am not sure why, but I doubt if it has to do with the Renderosity store. The other plus I have found in the store is being able to reward those like Thorne. He has given so many models, and now I have a way to give him something in return. Just my thoughts!

This is nothing personal yarp but frankly I'm tired of people carping about the store, "causing the iminent demise of Renderosity FreeStuff" so I figgered I'd crunch some numbers for everyone & demonstrate that a very good case can be made for FreeStuff actually benefitting from the store existence. Pre store inception (May 2000) there were 1121 items in FreeStuff, an average of 71 items posted per month since the 1st item on 2/6/99. Post store opening there has been 770 new items posted to FreeStuff, an incredible average of 192 per month. Additionally there are 220 items available in the store... a ratio of better than 3 new free items posted, for everyone that is for sale. On a personal note, I'm not entirely neutral here:-) I do have items both in FreeStuff (10) & the store (3). The freebies are to pay back the community at large for all the help, models, advice, etc that they've given me. The for sale stuff (which are all community support) are to payback Renderosity, just for being here.

To put things into perspective I have to date sold 15 of the 3-figure belly dancer set, a single copy of my claw-cuffs and none of my men's hooded jacket. Each of my figures I conservatively estimate takes 100 hours to complete. I am happy for the 50% commission generated by the sales to go towards the upkeep of this site. I enjoy tremendously the interaction between fellow Poser users and would sadly miss it if economic pressures forced its closure. I understand Yarp's concerns and to some degree find that I share them. I feel that those running the online store will require the wisdom of Solomon to ensure the correct balance between standards and quantity. Nothing remains the same, just remember that we are now living the good old days that we will look back on in years to come :) Regards

I've no problem with people making an honest buck, or pound or whatever, but if your motive is really to pay back Renderosity then you can actually donate your model (or whatever) to Renderosity and get no personal recompense at all. So far all my stuff has been free, though I am working on a utility that will cost maybe twenty five dollars or so. The rest of my stuff will continue to be free, because it's my hobby and I enjoy it. If I suddenly lost my day job then I might well take a different view. Maz

For myself, I think that the store is optional and it is up to whoever to go there or not. I got almost 7 or 8 full Poser stuffs from different site but mostly from renderosity. This site brings me to different locations where I can find something because someone went there before. The excellent artists here gave us their information and answer our questions even if the questions have been answered over and over...Excellent learning environment and adhoc also. The site has full of excellent models, props and so on. Thanks to all. In order to come back to the store, I bought about 10 to 15 items there. I am very happy to contrinute to this site by doing that BUT ALSO to contribute to the artists that give so much for free and I am not only talking about models for answers and information. As I bought a lot of stuff at Zygote, I like also to buy stuff here. Keep going and we will support this site. Thanks to all the artists and thanks to renderosity and their employees or supporters. Claude

Yarp - maybe its just perception on your part. When I first came here, the freestuff section was awesome cause I had nothing in my collection. As my collection grew, the freestuff sections filled with more "clutter" and "fluff" in my view. Now I look at the section and its mostly fluff, why, cause I've amassed a lot of stuff already and the new stuff is either stuff I don't need, doesn't interest me or is a rehash of earlier items. The first loungerie was awesome but, after the 25th texture I became disinterested cause I already ahd 4 or 5 I wasn't using. It doesn't mean the stuff is bad, just that I don't need it. Kind of like collecting Pokemon cards. The first ones are great. After 100 or so, you're only interested in the gold foil ones or rare ones. The cards don't suck, just the fact you have a ton already.

I also agree with Yarp to a certain degree. I have been afraid that the funstuff would be something that would fade into a area that would be updated once or twice a month but the store would be jammed with over priced things. That hasn't happen yet but I'm afraid that it will and then this site will lose what drew me here to begin with. I have no problem with anyone trying to make a buck , all I'm saying is rather than charging for everything , throw a bone out in the freestuff every once in a while.

I've seen this same post 3 or 4 times now, or rather other posts with more-or-less the same statement, and I think it is true, to some extent. The store probably gets stuff that in other times would be go to free stuff. But, I don't know if the current quanity or quality of free stuff is less, for all that, as when I was getting started in Poser 4 I downloaded a lot of stuff that was absolute junk, a dress with holes in the mesh, missing textures, missing parts, stuff that I threw right in the trash can. I don't think most of the current free stuff is like that. I'm under the impression that there are a lot more people making things for Poser than there were a year or so ago, so it sort of equals out. I also wonder if people that have never made a all original item of conforming clothing have any idea how much time it takes, my hat is off to people like Phil C that have dozens of items like that for free, here and on his web site. Oh, BTW, my only item in the store, a mermaid, has sold exactly 4, which puts it ahead of over half the items there, but no great shakes. I do a lot better at BBay & Zygote!

I admit it's true quality is increasing with the store, it's true it'a a mean to reward people who pleased us. I also admit i'd better buy stuff here than elsewhere... Well, nothing is crudly black or white ;) Yarp

What was the whole story here? buy or not to buy? posercommunity is semifree. However, YARP HAS A POINT. The stuff poseted for free is 10000000% of less usability than the one posted in the store however, it is up to everyone to buy or not...

I do not agree with you dunga. Free stuff is great quality and it is not fair for artist. this is not old stuff all times. There are great piece of work there. YOur comment is not right for the artist who work long hour to put stuff for free. Very often I even ask myself why this item is free...so much work and so good quality. Please artist, keep going on your stuff...free or not. For the bigger gift is not only the free stuff but the forum where so much information is provided. i understand that people that are here for a while, things have changed but for newbee, this site is still a great source of information, Claude Claude

noone disagrees about this site being a great sourche of information.... it is just a TENDENCY of becoming too commercialized.

I could go into the long numbers of how much this site costs to run, how much time goes into it and other B.S. to justify my case of having a Online Store. Then again, I could always charge a membership fee to get in and keep everything free.... I will try refrain from being sarcastic, promise, I will try... In all honesty, I have a direction that I want to take this Site, which costs money and will ALSO benefit the Community. Yes, it will be more commercialized, sorry to say this, but I don't hold a gun to your head and tell you to stay... or to buy. Renderosity has been doing ALLOT for the members here, things that you don't even know about. Things that we don't make public, because if we did, people would say WE own them and they would lose their value to you. Renderosity, or more to the point Ed, Diane, Myself and the Staff here, are out to help the Community. That HAS been our first goal since day one. Sorry you don't like us being commercialized, someone else have pointed other great resources sites out there that ARE free. But I am sorry to say, the Online Store is staying, it supports what Ed and I are doing and people are unfortunately going to have to get used to that fact. Jack

3 cents worth here (only money I'm tossing out L) Nothing I post will ever be for sale. This is my hobby, not an income. On the quality of items in Freestuff- IF any of my items are ever junk, ya better lemme know now!

Let's be "Friends" now, children , ok? :)))))) Store is to stay , I understand, no problems. It is just the case of spending.... I agreed, previously, that to buy or not to buy is everyones choice. Let's end this discussion , because the purpose of each discussion is to bring us somewhere. right now we are not moving anywhere, since the forum moderator is right in one part at least: he is spending some money on which we are 99% not even willing to know about:))))

What are you little girls bitching about?Renderosity and Renderotica are FREE sights.Nobody "Owes" you anything for Free,so if you think the sight is going God forbid "commercial"(People have a right to get PAID for their work,if you don't like said work,then don't buy it),and you have a problem with that,then go somewhere else.There is PLENTY of EXCELLENT quality products here for FREE.The people who kindly post their great art DON'T HAVE TO,so PLEASE RESPECT what Jack and group are doing for US.Man,what a bunch of spoiled brats.

Well, yarp - more and more people learning html and so the whole thing (I thought) is growing - why should I post my stuff at renderosity when I have my own website ?? This doesn't mean I would love renderosity less.

Keoto, He knows PFO and that's just the point. Do you remember Renderosity and PFO where at the same level a year ago ? What happened to PFO then, they just lost the spirit i'm speaking about. It was in my opinion the beginning of a commercial trend that sunk this site down. Schlabber, I have my own web site too although poor compared to yours. But Renderosity is the place where we share, it's the forum on the roman acceptance of the term. I don't love Renderosity less, i'm just sad. Jack, And i repeat again, of course should the online store stay. Absolutely no problem with this. Yarp

Hi Folks! Remember that this is all relative; a generation in cyberspace is only a period of a few months. Folks who just started visiting this site recently will clearly have a different sense of what its "spirit" is compared to relative old-timers like me who can remember when only 50 people or so would be online at the same time. Generating digital models and art is long and tedious work. I salute anyone who can create stuff that is of such quality that others would gladly buy it. As long as there is at least one new item in Freestuff every other day, this Forum will continue to be a valuable resource. I understand and respect yarp's sentiment--but let's give Jack and the others a break. Peter (Dr Zik)

I agree with Yarp.

I agreed with Yarp: I belive that poser comunity at their beguining was all free for poserers, at this times the poser comunity was contaminated with the commercial way of being, I understand that some people wants to make bussines with their stuff, that's perfectly legal and fair from my point of view. But we must keep in mind that one of the things that made this community what is it at the moment was the original spirit to share with the others. The spirit of the PropsGuild was inspired by the old days of the poser community (to share without asking for something in exchange), and this spirit is keeping our flame burning. Please don't take this message as an attack for those ones who are selling stuff, I wish them the best luck to sell their stuff, I'm just wanted to share my very personal point of view about this matter. By my part, I will be sharing my poser and 3d models without asking for something in exchange. Regards Virus

Virus, we're all waiting for Propsguild to come back. I really miss it. Yarp

Thank you very much for your nice coments about the Propsguild Yarp:) We really apreciate it :) I just have a few words to say: Be prepare for the Propsguild Reopening!!!! :) Best Regards Virus

Virus: Well, Virus - can't wait for that (reopening) and would offer any help I could give for doing this ... Yarp: I think both ways are understandable - the free and the store - if I thought of many, many hours in front of my PC. Why not getting a little bit of money back for the time I lost. I think a lot of people thinking the same and better getting some stuff to buy than not getting stuff anymore - what would you say if I decide to make something different because Poser won't bring me any money ?? I think you will be very disappointed if I decide so ... maybe some people thinking the same and so both ways - my opinion - should be accepted.

Schlabber, I agree 100% with what you say. The problem is that my native language is not english and it's difficult for me to be understood. You're right people may want to sell their stuff and i already bougth some stuff online (half a dozen this year). I understand that Jack need some money to boost Renderosity and i approve it too. I just meant that too much commercial behavior could damage the Poser community spirit. What virus said above is the just the point: don't forget what made this possible, the sharing community not business. Again i understand, and approve, that now we need business to grow but just don't forget the spirit. I don't want to begin a crusade again business. I don't think we're so far from each other, you, me, everyone there. So i'm not an all free supporter, i'm a Poser community lover. Yarp

I'm worry about Renderotica. This site is little part of Renderosity. This site roted latest month. Not new items in FreeStuff, little pictures in Gallery, little messages in forum. Renderotica is small model of Renderosity. This site reflect future state of Renderosity. Other question : many items come to SellStory. Poser non-professional product and i don't understand : Poser and money. (Another buisness 3DMax). Poser is depository of humanity properties, not more.

Well Nesterenko - is this a cry for help at renderotica ?? - hmm - if this should be I should bring up some poses there ?? :O) and to yarp: I have an idea for your poser-explorer (this should be possible) - could you mail me please (schlabber2000@gmx.de) - than I have your mail-adress (sorry, don't want to search :-) )