"It is not just "p4 with some minor changes"." Xantor, I never said it was. If you're going to quote me, please be accurate. I said P5, "IS P4 with some very minor changes and a bunch of 3rd party apps tacked on..." And your statement: "Poser 5 has some great features, the cloth room is excellent, the materials are great and they are much more advanced than in p4 you can do reflections in renders and make a fur effect with the displacement mapping. The firefly renderer is very good too" contains some of the very 3rd party technology I was talking about. I don't "complain" about P5...I merely report my experiences with it and that of others when people ask. And if you're that sick about complaints anyway, I'd suggest you stay away from threads titled, "I am not very pleased with Poser 5." What did you think you'd find in this thread? Nothing but compliments and praise?