Hey Bast, Nitreug, I'm a database programmer to by profession. I agree with you, the members made this place what it is, but without the software as a abckbone, this place would never have got off the ground to start with. Chailynne - did you say you'd trust Jack and Ed with your personal details because they wouldn't sell them to anyone? I agree with all the people who say they did a great job, because they did, but as for not selling your details read up the thread a little, as Bast says, they have proved how much you can trust them with your personal details. There are no hero's in this mess, nor villains, just a couple of people and a few companies trying to make money. Which is the way life and business is. Did it ever occur to anyone that the more money is made from this place, no matter who gets it, that it prolongs the life of this site. If no one ever made anything from it the plug would have been pulled ages ago. Anthony Appleyard - You won't be by yourself because i will be here with you, even if there is only us two, just like I still visit the PFO (though not as frequently as I perhaps should, just that this place is so much more user-friendly), and just like I will visit Jack and Ed's new site, if and when it turns up. Though I won't be visiting renderotica much, I usually have two small daughters hanging around.