In Gylfaginning, Snorri says that there are 12 gods... and then proceeds to list 13. ;^) If he couldn't get the lists and the ordering straight, we can only hope to make some little sense of it at this remote period. Anyway, find your copy of the Elder Edda... there are poems which are riddles asking what is the name of "x" and the response is: elves call it "thus" and gods call it the "other", it is shunned by dwarves who named it "whatever", and so on. Not all races had names for all of the objects in question (although IIRC they all had a name for mead), and the coverage and avoidances are interesting. There is also the Flyting of Loki, where the nasty troublemaker walks into the party where the gods and the elves are quietly enjoying a meal together. Loki calls Odin a liar and Freya a whore and remarks that Thor is so stupid that he doesn't know a glove from a hole in the ground... etc. He doesn't say a word against the elves. They'd blast him, and he is smart enough to know exactly how far he can push things. (Odin can't touch him since Loki is his foster brother; the elves face no such hindrance, and are indeed above the fray.) In the lists of races (think Treebeard wondering where to put hobbits) the alfar = elves are listed before the aesir = gods. By this poetic time, the vanir are usually lumped in with the aesir and before the giants. The vanir had lost a long war with the aesir and there was an exchange of hostages, intermarryings, and the usual. Now to add confusin... both of Loki's parents were giants. At least one of Thor's and Odin's parents were giants. The gods were always marrying giants. And for even more confusion... there are light elves and dark elves, and the dark elves are often confused with dwarves in the stories since they share similar dwellings and attributes. The elves didn't mingle, stayed out of trouble, and thus left few songs of their adventures. Of particular note: the poets were almost entirely Odin's followers... and if they say that the elves are above the gods, even to the detriment of their own chosen god, that was probably common belief. Carolly