It's also pretty telling among most Poser users that they compare themselves to the luminaries mentioned above. I have a foot in both camps - I like Poser because it's paint-by-numbers and easy, I adore my old version of Max because it takes me where my head wants to go and challenges me. However, I don't see my art as being on par with the Beatles and Michaelangelo. Neither do I consider it a serious argument; The beef modelers have with Poser is the genericness of it; if it's a bought mesh, bought pose, bought textures freebie lights, bought backdrop, bought texture brushes, where is YOUR mark on the image? You can get as creative as hell within those parameters, but no matter how hard you work, 90% of the poser images you'll see will still look premade, and preposed. A person using a modeling app does more than that from scratch - and since, in my book, more craftsmanship is involved, it's sort of natural to have a bias against pre-bought. Also; suffering the posing in those bulky apps is not quite true; Boning and rigging is easy once you get the hang of it, most experienced modelers have a rig they use, complete with envelopes (in max). And there is always CS, should all else fail. And if you go for look, you probably know as well as I about the concept of low-poly modeling and solving detailing through texturemaps. I have nothing against Poser - it has it's function and I usually have a marvellous time using it. But I'll never consider a run-of-the-mill vickie in run-of-the-mill settings as something on par with Stahlbergs women, Anry's characters, or Gevidals imagery. But thats just me. Hey, Mon - long time no see! :-) ~S