Fair enough - wasn't sure, so I asked before I brawled };-) Some of your points are also taken; to go back to an earlier debate I had the ah... pleasure to participate in, some times it just goes back to the fact that you need to make an image, the "Look what I made" effect. I agree with most of what you say, but my highly personal and biased, and probably to some bigoted opinion is no matter WHAT you make, you shouldnt be able to tell the tool in such a specific manner as you can with Poser - that takes the focus away on the art you're working so hard on producing. And I honestly think that that is one of the reasons for the "oh ew" reactions from the other application communities. ~S