stewer, Im still new at Poser5 but getting used to it now, thanks for the help by the way. raytrace bounces was set at 4 now 2 test image at 1000 by 700 at 100dpi three lights with only light two having a shadow of 1 set to raytrace and shadow, now added hide back faced polys getting under the two hour render time now thanks 1hour 45mins. I also noticed Poser5 is lest forgiving with the way models are made, there has to be no faults at all.