Oops...maybe it was upgrades unlimited, tried those and P5 is unavailable....looks like they went to the dogs over the years as well then coz i bought P3 from one of those....i thought the Brit Cinema 4d site sold it as well but can't find that, though i did find it here http://www.oneanimation.net/products.asp?manufacturer=75 though not cheap, CL really need to get there finger out on this......Steve