Attached Link: http://www.sparkchaser.net/blog.html

I know where you're coming from since I enjoy Kozaburo's free stuff as well. To me it's not just an issue of monopoly but an issue of not letting anything be free stuff. It's almost getting to a point where the practical free stuff may be a thing of the past since people want everything to be sold. As much as I enjoy DAZ free stuff I find a lot of it to be impractical or linked to a product I have no desire to buy. But honestly, it's been a while (probably since SP3) that they have released anything I have been itching to buy.

Renderosity was accused of being a virtual monopoly, with much hoo-har (you note 3D Commune was effectively just a protest site - what was being protested?), and Curious Labs never was a monopoly in the marketplace except for the one program (they didn't even TRY to provide brokered models until after the release of Poser 5). DAZ (or Zygote) has practically always been there. Where do fears of a monopoly come from? Probably from a variety of places, but certainly their development of a Poser-replacement which has a proprietary binary format that they've stated WILL contain additional capabilities that they won't inform third-party model-makers about. But that's just my personal read on where the monopoly fears come from. Their comments that they fully intend to get a larger percentage of the model market may also play a part in this. Cheers, Cliff

"Renderosity was accused of being a virtual monopoly, with much hoo-har (you note 3D Commune was effectively just a protest site - what was being protested?)

Indeed, but the protest was over a whole different concept, yes? A little problem reaching way back to the Willow/Ian/PoserForum/site-war conflict, not necessarily from fear that Renderosity was a monopoly (which wasn't quite true anyway, since BBay, PW/FW, et al existed back then too... :)

"...and Curious Labs never was a monopoly in the marketplace except for the one program"

That would be "Poser", which affected the entire, err, Poser community. ;)

"...a proprietary binary format that they've stated WILL contain additional capabilities that they won't inform third-party model-makers about."

Out of curiousity, where have they stated this?

/P

"...a proprietary binary format that they've stated WILL contain additional capabilities that they won't inform third-party model-makers about." I'm also curious to learn where this statement came from. It's a new one to me. mac

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?Form.ShowMessage=616644

So, has the company changed, or have the demands of the market and community changed? If anything, DAZ's prices are even lower than they were then. I think we need to think about that.

LOL@deecey. See my response to the 'kozaburo interview' thread in which I said more or less the same thing. mac

"How times have changed ....." Dunno; I still have no problem with the pricing (either then or now), and I still don't feel victimized by DAZ by buying something from them. (shrug) I do however worry about some aspects of their operations thus far. "So, has the company changed, or have the demands of the market and community changed? If anything, DAZ's prices are even lower than they were then." Yes, the company has changed in growth and in mission, both of which is hurting them because of their existing structure, IMHO. There is also something Ironbear pointed out with precision over at PPros: "I think they've hit and displaced CL as the new Neon Gods in the community" /P

Penguinisto loved the read, good comments. Anton's Maximus threads have the 3rd party Daz Studio stuff in them, they are in the Product Showcase Forum here. I may be off mark and am certainly not in the 'know' but what I got out of it was Anton creating a new male figure, Daz is gunna too and Daz didn't want to give Anton info on Daz Studio to help him get his model working in Daz Studio. Some other Daz Brokers have given similar Daz Studio comments at various sites.

Yes, the company has changed in growth and in mission As has CL, upon whose product this community and many of DAZ's products are based. Also, because the market is SO saturated with product, DAZ as a business has to develop other ways to keep afloat. DAZ Studio is one of those solutions. I try to stay quiet in the forums, but when I see unfairness I feel I have to speak out. Yes, I am a broker at DAZ, but this is not being said because they "give me a paycheck." With only two products there, you can't exactly say that I'm making money hand over fist. However, being a broker at DAZ allows me to see a side of these people that a lot of community members don't see. They are NICE, DECENT, hard working people who really CARE about what they do ... even though there are a lot of people here don't think so. These are hard times ... times when EVERYONE is forced to change in growth and mission. DAZ is a business that is made of people who work hard, as CL was when they were developing Poser 5. Those people worked for weeks on end without pay while people in this community demanded more features faster ... and look what happened. >> Anton creating a new male figure, Daz is gunna too and Daz didn't want to give Anton info on Daz Studio to help him get his model working in Daz Studio I don't know anything "from the inside" about this situation, so I am only commenting on what I saw on the outside. And, from what I saw, Anton didn't make any mention of his male figure until after he left DAZ, so I'm assuming he started it then, when he was planning on opening his own site. Additionally, DAZ has not made mention to any brokers about DAZ Studio features yet, as far as I know. But is that because they are conspiring to keep everything to themselves? No, I'm sorry, it's standard practice to keep those things quiet during software development, because ANYTHING can change before release. Want proof? Again, reflect back on the pre-Poser 5 release era. We as members of this community owe it to eachother to respect people's feelings. As far as I am concerned there are WAY too many witchhunts, which is one reason I try to keep so quiet. But when I see nice people being attacked, I have to stand up for them. It seems the right thing to do.

Fear aften comes from unpredicatbility, and DAZ has lately shown an unpredictable behavior at times (at least for people like me who are not in the know). Rules change, schedules are shifted, announces are made and taken back then confirmed... A predictable monopoly would cause less uneasiness than a good willing but somewhat erratic team. Just my 2 eurocents.

...Rules change, schedules are shifted, announces are made and taken back then confirmed... Which is a sign of having a lot on your plate, and an unfortunate part of fast growth. Can we give them a chance to succeed? It would only be fair.

"However, being a broker at DAZ allows me to see a side of these people that a lot of community members don't see. They are NICE, DECENT, hard working people who really CARE about what they do ... even though there are a lot of people here don't think so."

I never said otherwise - Hell, I go down there personally once every couple of months, and I hold no ill intent or ill will towards anyone there (which is why I felt the need to put a disclaimer up in the first place on the article itself.)

"Which is a sign of having a lot on your plate, and an unfortunate part of fast growth."

Exactly my point ;)

"Can we give them a chance to succeed? It would only be fair."

Sure, which is why I suggested what I did instead of merely sitting back and waiting to see if they sink or swim on their own.

Call it Tough Love if you desire, but if I were light and easy and cheerleading with my opinions on DAZ, it would be sycophancy on my part, and in the long term a mark of disrespect towards them.

It's like giving honest critiques to artists... instead of "oooh, that's purty!", you do the artist a better service by telling 'em "this doesn't look right, and this could use some help..." Same goes with the businesses you respect and appreciate. :)

/P

I admire DAZ as a company, they have a mission, they have a plan, objectives and goals. I have supported them from way back when others and I had a huge debate with them on this forum over the pricing of Victoria 1.

Ultimately that debate played a part in the reduction of V1's price to what we today consider a "normal price" and also had a strong influence - in a sense - in the development of the markets as we know them now.
See this link from 2000 for the outcome (the original debate in the forums archive has mysteriously vanished!)

http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?Form.ShowMessage=122288

As a sign of the times and the way things have changed since then, I read today in Poserpros from Daz that:

"A few of the DAZ employees are in Japan and they'll be meeting with Kozaburo and holding a bit of an interview with him which will later be posted online for everyone to read. They're also very interested in meeting with Quarker, who we believe is located in Japan as well. However, his currently listed email address doesn't seem to be active, and no one's had any luck contacting him.

If anyone has any idea of how to get in contact with Quarker, we'd love to hear about it. If we can reach him within the next week, then perhaps we can have a similar interview opportunity as well.

So, if anyone can help us out, we'd appreciate it.

Thanks,

Steve Kondris
DAZ Productions, Inc."

If this is not a recruitment/poaching drive aimed at particular artists (one of whom, Quarker, is an exclusive Renderosity Merchant) I will eat my proverbial hat.

So what has changed since DAZ put their toe into the water in 2000 and became a real market player?

Well for one thing they now have so much exposure and commitment to that market that they are now seeking to dominate it and eradicate the competition.

Back in 2000 DAZ listened to the voices that urged them to take a different course (to their credit and to their financial enrichment). Today those voices are again urging DAZ to re-examine their market role and attitude. Dan Farr, if you are reading, please listen up.

Poser is and has always been a collaborative market involving many players big (as in Curious Labs and Daz) and small as in individual creators brokered and unbrokered and free item providers, developers, inventors and ordinary forum participants.

The fundamental key to the success of Poser, and its survival through all the life-threatening traumas and all else that has followed, has been this anarchic, largely unregulated and open market. A market with widely differing viewpoints, ideas, business philosophies and political positions and many different forums.

This eclectic market is akin to the Wild West frontier in its heyday, BUT this has been the key to the sheer dynamism and energy that helped Poser to survive, grow and develop and as a consequence, DAZ.

The sheer energy and creativity of such a diverse and creative market has us where we are today.
NEVER, EVER forget that, it is the philosophical and material bread and butter of this whole damm experience.

I see developments that disturb me; developments that seek to centralise the market to a few power players and maybe even one, DAZ.

That is DEATH for this community, DEATH for the range and depth of creativity that has helped us to survive to 2004, DEATH for the sheer dynamism that has got us here and will carry us through the next four years and beyond.

Daz Studio is not the answer any more than Poser 5 or Shade or any other Program is. Look at what Z-Brush 2 and its 16-bit displacement maps can do when combined with Poser 5 and be content to be part of that market, to take a share of it.

Any company attempting to dominate, control and channel the market to its exclusive financial ends will result in the market rebounding on those that attempt this and ultimately destroying them.

That is not a threat but the reality of the 3D-software market today. It may even come to pass in the case of the OS market as regards Microsoft.

Learn the lessons, and survive as company that we can continue to support.

Regards
STORM

I like the Tough Love analogy.

The posts in this thread are eloquent and well stated ... and also spoken with respect to others' feelings. That is what I was hoping to continue after my last couple of posts. 8-) All I ask for the community to do is to look back and reflect on how many times DAZ has listened to the community and responded with positive solutions. Let's not write them off as a "monopoly" yet ... they are growing, and learning from mistakes at the same time. I had the distinct pleasure of working for a multimedia software company when it was similarly growing by leaps and bounds. I came in as employee number 120-something. Within a year, they grew to over 400 ... and the following year (the stock market crash year), they let half of them go. I was one of the casualties. Basically, when I was hired, I was told that they had to take the opportunity to grow, because the time was right. They KNEW it was risky, and so did I going in. But they had to take that chance, and so did I. I don't fault them for trying, nor do I fault them for "mistakes" that were made in an unpredictable market. It was a GREAT bunch of people and a great place to work. I miss it terribly, and it was the best career opportunity I have had to date. A tough act to follow. My layoff didn't stop me from respecting the company, the products, and the way they did (and still do) treat their employees. And I still devotedly use their software because I feel it's the best of its kind. (In fact, I've noticed that other people that frequent here also use it ... LOL) I see a similar situation here, and I also see the reactions to the rapid growth. All I think about in times like this is, "This too shall pass." I'm not saying anyone is wrong or right, I only ask that we all play fair and respect feelings, and give DAZ time to react and respond. I'd like to thank those that have posted so far for bring forth their concerns in a positive manner instead of as a "witch hunt." There may be hope for all of us after all. 8-)

.

Hiya Mehndi! I infested PPros with a thread like this too... I do like how this one in R'osity is all going as well; good (and IMHO necessary) conversations all around, and I hope DAZ (and R'osity, and aww hell, everyone else doing business in Poserland) learns something not from the original blog, so much as from the words and reactions of everyone who has responded to it so far :) /P

Attached Link: http://www.poserpros.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=24959&start=100

LOL@Mehndi. You go girl!!!!!!!!

Damn rend's eating my posts ugh. Deecey you should read this thread: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?ForumID=12356&Form.ShowMessage=1740399&Reply=1741548#21 and read Silverleif-Studios responce to the Daz situation at this link: http://www.silverleifstudios.com/OfficialResponse/ It's releavant from your layoff comments as well as the discussion here about Daz.

MachineClaw, I did go and read the thread you referenced, and also read Silverleif's statement as well as Mehndi's thread. I am also a disabled person. I had cervical disc surgery and spinal cord decompression 13 years ago. I was let go from a 15-year job as a result. INow, I've recently learned that there has been "arthritic deterioration" and bone spur growth where the original surgery was, so I may be heading for a second surgery. I can totally relate to SS's dilemma, believe me. The little money I make brokering through DAZ helps pay the bills (and hopefully here soon, after a Poser 5 product goes through beta testing). Given my past and current situations, I would be lying if I said I wasn't concerned after reading the threads you mentioned. But I guess I have hope that something will come of all this debate and uproar. I'm just trying to be a peacemaker is all - I guess that's my nature. 8-(

ROTFL! (cue Gollum-like voice) : Yesh, yessh - we cants have the Mehndis polluting the forumses, can we? ;) Okay, but hold up a sec - it isn't that cut-and-dried: Remember, Steve Kondris isn't in the office until Monday, nor is the rest of DAZ... this was a moderator decision (and judging by the thread Will's the point-man on it.) And, unless things have changed there since I was working there, the decision was made by at least a quorum of mods, so it isn't just Will, or just (insert name here) doing it. Any decision affecting DAZ forum posts or membership requires a group to concur, and nobody gets banned without Steve or Bryan saying so. I suspect Steve will defuse it come Monday morning, one way or the other (which gets to the point I made in the blog... they need a weekend duty guy, especially when it comes to throwing legal terms around.) /P

Pengy, unbeknownst to most, Daz's principles are not nearly as "off duty", or "gone" as they might seem to be. I just got off a couple hour long phone call with Dan Farr, who called to find out why I had posted something in their forums they had to delete, etc. He has not read the post that was deleted, and each time I have asked him to come onto this site and read the copy of it that I posted here, he has sort of not indicated if he would, or would not, so I do not know if he intends to or not. However, when I have repeatedly asked that my post be restored, or the thread be unlocked so I can repost it, he has said over and over that they have "enabled" Will Dupre and the rest of their staff to make their own decisions in matters such as this, from which I take it he means they are closing ranks around Will, and even if Will was wrong, he is right as far as Daz goes. Dan Farr did ask that we not be enemies, not have a warlike footing, and I agree with that. I am not on a warlike footing with them at all. I regret it if my post comes across that way to anyone. I do however have a unique insiders view of this matter at least from the perspective of Merrilyn Ellison, and wanted to share a few thoughts, opinions, and observations based on that admittedly rather one sided view of what is going on.

I do however have a unique insiders view of this matter at least from the perspective of Merrilyn Ellison, and wanted to share a few thoughts, opinions, and observations based on that admittedly rather one sided view of what is going on. I think that is also what I am trying to say as well, Mehndi ... that there are two sides to a story and we have only heard one.

Attached Link: http://www.poserpros.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=194545#194545

Curious Labs might make everyone's concerns over Koz's hair null and void anyway if they can perfect their dynamic hair for the release of version 6 (longshot). The future and longevity of Poser will inevitably depend on it's animation capabilities. Dynamic hair is a step in the right direction, but in it's current form on P5, it just doesn't work very well in animation. However, with the right render settings, it can look as real as Koz's hair, and of course is much more versitile. Curious Labs knows dynamic hair and cloth are the future of their product (actually, they're OLD news for most professional 3D users, but it's the future for Poser), and turning back now from their current progress would be a serious mistake. I'm looking for CL to improve dramatically on their dynamic hair for Poser 6, and even moreso in future upgrades, and I look for Daz Studio to offer dynamic hair plugins for it's program when it gets out of beta. And believe me folks, when and if they perfect it's use, dynamic hair will eventually drive the demand/value of these model-based hair products to rock-bottom. One possible scenerio I can envision is this: All CL needs to do is create a version of the program that's stable and flexible enough to be used by a major and well-known FX studio in their exsisting pipeline, and then mention it's use in a successful motion picture. Once something like that happens (if that happens) then all hell will break loose. You'll have folks who would have never dreamed of buying Poser suddenly buying multiple network licenses, and making CL a very wealthy company. What will that mean to you? It could very well mean that Daz will suddenly be the small fish in the ocean (unless their D/S can catch up fast enough), as companies with much deeper pockets (who were previously unheard of by the Poser community) start to create 3rd party content for Poser to meet the demands of high-paying studios. Think that scenerio is too far-fetched? Similar situations have happened before. 3dsMax used to be scoffed at by users of Autodesk and Wavefront products until later versions, which packed more features, were picked up and used in the creation of some films and highly successful video games. Suddenly it's the top selling 3D modeling software in the world, and to this day still boasts the largest range of 3rd party plugins of any 3D application. I could envision something similar happening with Curious Labs if they get their act together for animators in future versions. OR another possibility is... Daz Studio could blow Poser away and put CL out of business, and truly become the monopoly you all fear. ;-)

.

maxxx ... it would be nice to see Poser become a "respectable" application, wouldn't it? However, with those features, the price would also increase I'm afraid ... unless they release a "Professional" version of the product and keep a version that is priced for us regular folks. 8-) As I have said in other threads, these are interesting times for us, and we can only wait and ride out the storm.

chuckles Hey Deecey, ever hear the old saying, "May you live in interesting times"? It is an old Chinese Curse. And indeed, I agree, we have been caught up in "interesting times" now for years in the Poser community :)

[It is an old Chinese Curse. And indeed, I agree, we have been caught up in "interesting times" now for years in the Poser community :)] Mehndi....seems I've started my Poser career just in time. :-)

The "interesting times" started with the #1 release of a program called Poser........

Too much Drama.

" Too much Drama." Perhaps, perhaps not. I like the results I've seen so far, and hopefully DAZ can get some solid insight out of the responses as well. There is more to this than just venting the spleen, y'know... :) /P

.