OK time out guys! Posts about the semantics of English phrases surely belong in their own thread, but maybe its a good lesson in how things can be misinterpreted. With that in mind, let me just restate my views about the original post just so that there is no mis-understanding or offense taken. 1/ I don't care What tool or combination of tools, you use to produce your art - if it looks good then I'll admire it for the great piece of art it is 2/ I would like to be able to give (and hopefully receive) credit for work that did not just rely on the artists 2D Postworking ability so I'd love an area where theres a Hot 20 for non-postworked images 3/ I think its important that potential buyers of a 3D package know exactly what the strengths AND LIMITATIONS of a package are. And don't tell me to go look on the manufacturers web-site! Go to the Curious Labs website and tell me hand on your heart that NONE of the images there are postworked (eg. Reflections by Drazenka Kimpel - great image but I couldn't do that with just my copy of Poser!) 4/ There's a certain challenge in producing a piece of work using only one specific tool to achieve the desired effect. Its not being a fanatical purist - just a facination in getting a 3D package to model the real world. Remember if an image is produced using only a set of repeatable algorithms then given enough computing power its a short leap to an animation, realistic movies rendered entirely with a computer, realistic virtual environments for games etc etc etc. I (and I'm sure a few others) would like to distinguish between these potential pictures and ones that included postworking. Thats it from me - I'm off to think of another Controversial thread ;-) Stealth1701