yeah, thats what i tried starting with and it didnt work but ya know i think i finally got it i've been playing around and i tried selecting the lips in the render options and also for the eyes and it came up that no texture was aimed for it so i aimed my new tex to each of those and it took jeeze all this trouble and it was something so very simple. oh well vicki is one that you have to learn to get everything just right so much differant than posette. i still want to thank eveyone once again for the help that they have given me and as soon as i get the tex just the way i want it i'll send it to free stuff we really need more vicki texs jeff (someone please pass the glue and rogain gotta put my hair back in lol)