edge loops ..feh. Sculpting clay is so much simpler :) Nobody expects it to move later grin I'm going with relaxed open mouth. I may regret it later when it comes to canine morphs, but I'm having trouble visualising the mouth when fully open. You've got a point about the edge loops around the mouth. I'm trying not to get too species specific on the base model, but I keep drifting towards felines. I have to remind myself that this needs to be doglike eventually as well. I think the eyesocket ridge is a little strong, so I may soften that a bit and bring the eyelids down before I add lashes (transmap style, not modeled) Carolly Theres a surprising number of polys under the chin. I've been keeping the polycount down while making large mass adjustments, so I haven't added extra loops for wrinkle areas yet. I think that large cheek ruffs and mane will be done with hair model style props, whiskers as props as well. I'm dithering about eyebrows .. but the dog here (golden retreiver) has amazingly expressive eyebrow bumps, so I think they're needed. all told, about 6 hours of modleing on him so far. Lyrra