FWT, It appears I misread something too . . . in the tutorial It mentions recessing selected polys for the eyes, nostrils and mouth rather than making cuts. Also, from litst' illustration it appears that both pole vertices would move along the Z axis by 25% rather than the 10% I'd used which upsets my calculation to rescale the Z dimension back to 100%. Trivial as every point is moved at sometime or another during the tutorial but it shows to go ya - we all make mistakes. Anyrate, If the converstaion has stimulated your curiousity, so much the better. There is no denying your talent and I look forward to future renders/models from you in Carrara when I get back from the abyss. (I still ponder on that shadow thing I think you did in Bryce a while back.) cheers, - TJ