Ornlu, The more I hear about max the less impressed with it and more impressed with it's plug-ins. My next step will be C4D, but not for a long time - I'm still trying to get Carrara to work right for me . . . some of the tutorials I'm using now to expand my knowledge of Carrara are for Max and lightwave. Moe has a discussion going on about subdivision in the modeling forum which I'm hoping be able to stay around long enough to follow, and has ref'd Bay Raitt and Peter(?) Ratner two very learned modelers. Yes I love to experiment too - this whole thing recently about refraction including tjohns seperate thread brought up some rather fond memories of it; some years old. Unfortunately when the subject switched to ambience I couldn't talk much about it as I haven't played with premium renders all that much, but that's coming. What I've found to be one of the most interesting effects in Bryce was brought to my attention by Vile and his telescopic effects - I still play with that one every once and a while. - TJ