I see we dont think alike either Ultra,..As you state. poser the program is fun for you... while its is i, who creates my own fun/art using the programs as programs to reach my final goal. ...my art. ~ ill stick with my previous line "The time you spend entering contests, use it to practise your art instead....you cant lose...." the sentance is quite correct, and i feel i detect a slight aggressive bent in your tone....why is that may i ask ?? or is that rude? if so sorry.. oh and congratulations with Muted Portrait Comp best work. may i have the address to check it out thanks :O) KAOS