Jeff, the knots are just a torus knot, one of the built-in prims in Max. Director, Rob and I wrote the book on EMC (Really! we figured it out by comparing notes on our unsuccessful attempts. We were stuck in different places and when we got together it all fell into place) I have a tut and so does he. If you have any Q's just drop me an e-mail. Unfortunately I'm too busy right now to do much keeping up on the forums. reddog, yeah, that goose-step-march is basically the standard walk from walk designer. I use a special posette that has the joint angles reworked on the feet to achieve a "high heel" walk. The trouble is when you shorten the stride, walk designer produces a walk that limps. nerd