pogmahone now that i have got over my testy mood i can but do nothing more than agree with you. Oh well there is one thing i can do. Sorry to those that were just having a bit of light fun with this post. A bad nights sleep, early wake up and being a little frustrated because i completely stuffed up a WIP i was working on for the October Speed Challenge made me that way. Now all i have to do is figure out when i finish this project, what would be the best render for it or should i be silly and ask on the forum LOL