Reckon I'll put in my thoughts on all this stuff, too. I'm really of two minds about the whole deal. On the one hand, I like the diversity of things being done with fractals but on the other hand it'd be a shame to see the fractal pages become a catchall and just some miscellaneous "other" genre. I agree with Keith about some of the more obvious "mis-postings". I'm certainly not a fractal "purist" and I suppose many more traditional fractallists weren't too pleased to see all those mega-layer compositions that I or Keith, Maria and others have done using all fractals to make scenes with a quasi real-life look to them. The main thing I think that separates fractal art from the others here is the "do it yourself" quality even when one makes fractal scenes. There is no "freestuff" available and we have to make everything "from scratch". Need a sphere? Gotta come up with 4-10 layers of design and shading/masking layers to make one. Need a fractal building or a giraffe like Maria has made so well before? Gotta go and find all the right fractal shapes and make the masks, textures and clips yourself and layer it all. Need a dock? I had to come up with shapes, textures and some flames to the tune of 90 layers just to make that. Took me a month and a half solid to figure things out and make "Vancouver Sunset" last year. Having a vision for an image and taking the time to realize that vision causes one to become more proficient with whatever "fractal software" they use. If we had all sorts of "freestuff" we would never learn really how to use our programs better and would just paste in what someone else took the time to figure out. We see this with much of the Poser and some of the Bryce stuff here where there is this big long list of credits under the image where they used "free" or bought stuff someone else made. Many are stunningly beautiful compositions and amazingly artistic and I enjoy them but they are, IMO, partially the fruits of someone else's labors unless the artist made everything themselves by really learning their MEDIUM. Therein lies any "purity" that fractal art may have - they all have to be made from scratch. There are many places to learn programs like UF, XD, VOC, Apophysis and others and hundreds of great artists who are glad to help, but in the end, one has to "do it yourself". I think that there is a big difference between "post-work" and the use of a second or third "medium" to add shapes to an image. The hair splitting is just "lawyer talk", IMO. Adding texture or kaleidoscoping/mirroring/texturing a flame or other fractal is just post-work or "editing", IMO, and I don't see why anyone would have a problem with it. When I take a picture of my wife I'm not taking a picture of the background scenery and all the naturally ocurring fractals like trees in it, I'm taking a pic of HER and the background is just there. SHE is the focus, the subject. If I wanted a pic of the scenery, I'd leave her out of it, no? There is a gallery for Poser works and anything that uses that program - or MEDIUM ought to go there since it was set aside especially for the users of that medium to show all the possibilities of that program. When I see an image like that, however beautiful, the first thing that comes to mind is Poser even if there are a ton of fractals in the background. One's eye is drawn first to the Poser figure and later to the background. Fractals and fractal looking images can be made with all sorts of programs. Look at the neat "fractals" Harmen makes with - I think - Artmatic on his Macintosh rig. Makes me want to buy a Mac - if I could afford one! LOL Likewise, many fractal looking things can be done with Bryce - check out "araffaell"! I remember Bryan Smith(smithgiant) being dissed pretty bad for not using "fractal" software to make fractal seeming images and he did some incredible pieces of art. I certainly couldn't tell what was used and the same with Harmen's stuff - they sure look "fractal" enough for me. But when one starts making rooms and furniture, the overarching vibe says Bryce to anyone who looks. There again, a special gallery has been set aside here to show what can be done in that medium as well. Why wouldn't one want to post their images with Poser or Bryce aspects to the galleries where they could be most appreciated by artists familiar with those media and the difficulties and skills required to produce an image with them? I certainly am not an authority on what it takes to use those programs, though I do know when I like an image. Not to mention it would get more of artists exposed to what can be added to those images with fractals and maybe we wouldn't be such a minority after a while. But at the same time there is the question of change or stagnation of this genre. I've enjoyed most of the supposedly "mis-posted" images immensely and to not have seen them would have left my life a good bit less enriched. After the guidelines happened, I made efforts to make sure to periodically check my favorite artists' from the fractal pages galleries and have seen some amazing stuff but it IS a hassle and takes more time than many of us have. Maybe one should not let their creativity be constrained to the boundaries of a certain genre just because they want to post to a certain gallery? I think we should all just "let 'er rip' and make the images that come naturally from our souls and not be so worried about "where do I post this"? or "does it fit in"? Post it where you HONESTLY know it fits and who cares WHERE it is as long as its in one's gallery page? The important thing is THAT IT IS. I guess one problem is there are so many programs to make fractals, too. Maybe change the name of the gallery to "Fractal Art" instead of "Fractals"? To constrain it to nothing but spirals would be a dead end, IMO. How many can you make before they all look the same? It occurs to me the gallery would then display a very fractal-like "self similarity" and we'd miss out on seeing some pretty cool images. Anyhow, Just my couple a cents - I sure hope whatever "guidelines" we come up with will be accepted and everyone can get back to what they do best - make awesome pieces of digital art! I think many of us need to also realize that - at least in my case - we are allowed to post here for free and as such are "guests" in the "house" of the corporation that has given us all this opportunity and, as with any visitors, we have to follow the rules they put forth because they own this web-space. Hope no one gets ticked at me - just my opinions - and I'm in no way dissing anyone's work. Heck, I'd be in the MM and Bryce gallery occasionally, too - if I could figure out how to use Bryce and find a really fierce looking dragon tube! lol I'll be happy with whatever the guidelines become. I lean a bit towards keeping it like it is, but it's really no biggie one way or another. Rick :?)