you just have to think from your perspective. i mean not only is it a place where literally dozens of different programs are put together in a test of their and their owners' abilities, but it's also a classy forum where artistes and real artists come most often times know it ALL. so it's normal for them to clique up against these newcomers who use a crayola box to render. shrug i still say burn'em, but yeah. and mind you, consider this as well, no bryce work is ever going to win that challenge. ever. specifically because it will ultimately be cliqui. even if you pass the first popular vote it's still going to be a pain in the ass afterwords. you expect the cgtalk admins to vote for a bryce piece? how much money is corel sponsoring them with compared to discreet or whatever? drac