Hehehe, Pog this happens all the time, I figured thats what it was but wasnt sure so I needed to ask, hence all the question marks. Back to the scheduled programming: But my point is that you you use basically the same process in Bryce AND you get a better result. My friend objects to modelling terrains in Max, because he can get a better result in Bryce. Perhaps Im a little dense and dont quite get your meaning but in what respect do you equate the mountain building process in the artists link posted by Pog (BTW, a very nice render) and the process of terrain building in Bryce? The Max process used in that example is a multi-stepped process and not at all the only option available to modelers. Whereas in Bryce the simple clicking of the create terrain button will instantly through mathematical algorithms produce a viable terrain object for you. You do not build the object, Bryce does the building and this is exactly what Bryce, Vue and Terragen was designed to do, generate terrains and it wouldnt look good for Bryce and the others if it didnt do the job it was designed to do and do it better than a modeling program. I consider Bryce and programs cloned from Bryce specialty programs in that it specializes in building terrains. Although many of the high-end modeling programs come with terrain building plugins they (the programs) do not specialize in that endeavor and could not logically hold a candle to the task which Bryce was inherently designed to do without much fuss and interfacing from the artist and does it better. So I dont see the comparison. I too would object to modeling terrains in Max because Bryce could easily provide the terrains algorithmically that I need. But I know full well also that 3D StudioMax offers me that feature but much more labor intensively. Therein lies the crux of what I first understood this post to be about, the rules regarding the contest entry requirements. From an artistic POV, the end product is most important to the artist not what tools he/she uses to get to that pinnacle, I agree and will wholeheartedly grant you that. But I can understand placing limits on what software can and cannot be allowed for a contest entry if the ultimate test is that of artistic creativity and mastery of the artist using modeling programs. Disallowing terrain generators and figure enhancing programs fall through the cracks because in those programs, the objects are algorithmically generated or professionally pre-created and not at all made by the artist but by the software and therefore cannot not be included as the rendering artists product. Unfortunately the contest in question is not an open house contest where everything goes. And I do find fault with the moderator for not making the distinction in that Vray case and the displacement maps. Gasp, coming up for air. :)