Kelderek: True, but the other site didn't say Poser couldn't make art either (or at least hadn't when I last read the thread - barring the drooling praise of poser from the support mob). Technically though, it can't. :) The very limitations of poser preclude any "real" art coming out of it without postwork to correct the very functional errors created by the program's limitations. So, in a technical sense "Poser cannot create art", that's not to say someone using it can't, but I would suggest that the employment of other applications to compensate for the failings in Poser would be essential. As regards your observation how porn always pops up in a thread about poser art. You're right, it does, frequently as a further put down. And normally, some wet wally will trot out the old masters and some famous names to help themselves feel better. I almost die laughing everytime I see someone compare Poser to Michaelangelo etc. Doesn't make it any better, but at least it's consistent. smirk Unfortunately, as you're probably aware, poser has a nasty reputation for cookie cutter, and fantasy porn. If the users of the software and the various people making images from it can get themselves away from that and reduce the quantity of that material they might have a stronger stance to beat down the "elitists" with. Unfortunately with so many site galleries and so many store items geared simply towards sexual fantasy it's going to be a hard slog to gain credibility for an application that is perfectly useful in a work pipeline. Rubbermatt: Sorry old chap, I happen to disagree with you. I would suggest that those who bark the loudest are those who spent frightening amounts of money on their applications only to have someone come along with less and prove their money wasted. I don't much like the image that started this discussion but I can admire the technical aspects of it. Starting from a poser base and using photoshop to create that shows talent, certainly a lot more than I've got. From a newcomer, using a cheap low end package... That's gotta smart when you splashed out thousands of dollars and can't do it.