igohigh, I appreciate that you are raising some greater questions regarding the nature of IP law and the way it is enforced. You also know (or at least I hope you do) that I just wuvs ya. And this is a good topic for discussion. But you are doing more harm than good. You are perpetuating, at a time when it is most harmful, a sort of defeatist thought process. If one were to read your statement in 47 plainly, one would get the feeling that there is nothing new under the sun. Which is both untrue and misleading. If such were the case, then all those wonderful examples you just cited would never have been -- they would already have been made. The discussion you seek to have is causing harm by confusing the much, much more local issue of "how to deal with this 'change' at Renderosity" with the idea of changing the nature of the protections afforded by laws surrounding intellectual property. And that is generating more ill will towards renderosity. Right now, people are trying to find answers. Lots of us are trying our damndest to give them. Because that's what they need. That's what Helgard was trying to do here -- and did a pretty good job of it for diving in for the first time to really try and figure this stuff out. It's ok to be pissed. But you're not helping. You're harming. I hope you don't get too mad at me for saying this.

ynsaen; not mad at all, since when do I ever get mad? (save a few time when people attacked Ecstasy, Thorne, or others I look up to..but that's another story) My words didn't come out right when what I was really trying to say is that I too sometimes get the whole "what the use of it all" feeling too when reading some of these threads. I too once pulled my entire gallery after one of these things and I too was a lurker years ago literally afraid to make my first post...actually it wasn't until a member stated "Only pirates and warezes lurk in forums" that I came out of my shell, not wanting anyone to think I was one of those! As you know I am just a hobbyist, an amateur, who makes no money in art for I make my living in the techie world. But I also hope anyone who knows me also knows that I do always attempt to credit the fine authors and even those who pass their wisdom on to my feeble follies and I never make any intention to steal or claim credit for another's works. I also do what I can to avoid copywrite infringements (but no, I'm not a professional nor am I a lawyer or ever intend to be) even when I was criticized for giving away my Jousting Arena and was told I should have made "hundreds of dollars" selling it - heck, I stated in the readme it was based on the movie "A Knight's Tale" and gave link to the movie site! (although I also got a couple e-mails telling my it was horribly historically incorrect and that I should have been ashamed to post it on the net in the first place...go figure) Naw, your right, I got caught up the moment and let my RDNA personality surface here at Rendo...I try to keep the two separate as things here are much more tightly wound and nerves more easily shattered. However there is definitely two categories of folk here (or any Poser community for that matter): The Professional - making money with their art The hobbyist - just goofin around Hobbyists do tend to do fan art and parody stuff, it's what we know best and some have no intention of taking it any further, that's why we're called "hobbyists" and "amatures"...heck, the last time that whole topic was in debate here I went I put all my stuff under the category of "Poser/Amateur" in the new gallery system because the Professionals here were upset to have to post their fine art along side a bunch of lousy hobbyists....true story! Personally I could care less if Rendo denies all fan art and parody art, through out all 'hobbyists' and declares that only 'Professionals' allowed, I'd just go elsewhere. Same if RDNA gives me the boot....however if Curious Labs comes and takes my Poser away, then I'd have to pull the old carbothelo back out ;) Of course Rendo makes the rules and the rules is the rules and I always try to abide by the rules. If the rules are not to my liking then I just go elsewhere. The members here got mad at my silly little forum posts before and I ended up elswhere...untill they get sick of me. If I want to post super heroes then I can post at Animotions, if I want to post scantily clad women then I can post as Renderotica, or I can always go back to just sharing my little dittys (no affiliation with Odd Ditty Foundry) with my non-art friends on the net - their always writing and asking when my next render will be finished, and often giving me ideas for the ones I've done. But what does sadden me is that Renderosity was once the great melting pot of artists, almost anything you wanted to learn could be found here but now in light of things I get that sinking feeling, like the day certain jerks chased Thorne right off the net and the sky suddenly turned grey :( Anyway, I aint good with words and all and that is certainly true (my English teachers will vouch to that!) so I'll shut up now and just watch and see what happens. crowd cheers in the background

But what does sadden me is that Renderosity was once the great melting pot of artists, almost anything you wanted to learn could be found here but now in light of things I get that sinking feeling, like the day certain jerks chased Thorne right off the net and the sky suddenly turned grey :( Huggs, hon. You know, I remember getting soo mad then. I thought for sure I was gonna get lost in the dark. It will still be a melting pot. It will still be a place for amateurs and pros and all the in betweens. We just gotta let it be that. And stop letting the, ahem, less inclined types have their way. (unless, of course, the invent a morticia addams dress...)

And none of this even gets into software copyrights,where people are claiming they own some of the very basic technologies used on the web today. That's patents, and I agree completely that the U.S. patent system is corrupt and seriously in need of an overhaul. But a patent is not a copyright is not a trademark. ;) bonni

well the only advantage here is to keep the opportunity of downloading your own purchase history of RMP over and over again in case ov problem, not 24h-4try and it's gone policy as anywhere else i purchased stuff... aside from that (cheers, helgard :) ), well no poser communauty displayed enough variety and range of members to make me feel concerned or allowed to join in. Rosity did not either but at least it was a central portal i guess rosity is good for commercial, rmp, and product showcase... all things around this is just a clever lie and illusion and that's all :) what i wonder now is if i can dare the rendo admins in posting fanarts/copyrigthed derivated pictures of mine for which i DID GOT the authorisation of the true copyright holder without getting warning records on my membership account and be banned in less than 4 pictureS. it is a risky try and i dont even think i wanna take the bet on it !

igohigh wrote: "Al Gore invented the Internet, geez I thought everyone knew that!?" What Al Gore actually said was that his department was responsible for creating Arpanet, which was the forerunner of the Internet. Which was true.

Not totally on topic but here's a hearening story aginst the big guys. McDonalds tried to copywrite the name 'Ronald McDonald'. A Scots gentleman with that name, happens to be the current head of the Clan McDonald, and he pointed out that there have been Ronald McDonalds since the 9th century in Scotland. That being the case McDonalds could take their ideas and stick them! Have you noticed that McDonalds adverts do have the clown, but he doesn't use the name 'Ronald McDonald' anymore? ynsaen, yes a lot of unnecessary grief is being caused here. This could be put to rest by Rendo's Powers That Be (TM) making a statement. Please could we have a statement, pretty please, pretty please with sugar on top? On the subject of silly children's names I've come across several Chelseas, an area of London famous for being trendy and also for its hospital for old servicemen. Will we see the trend spreading to other areas of London with similar sounding endings? Little girls called 'Battersea' famous for its old power station, 'Putney' a downmarket area of London or 'Marshelsea' where the notorious prison was?

Authors have had this problem for quite a while. J.M.Barrie's solution in 'Peter Pan' was to invent the name Wendy.

"That's patents, and I agree completely that the U.S. patent system is corrupt and seriously in need of an overhaul." Many time ago, I was processing patents from a very big U.S. company to see if some can be useful to our company, I found one that was nothing important, but the funny thing was a patent that found later refering to the first patent. The resume is:, the first patent was not working properly because had a bug and the second patent was a patent that corrected the bug of the first patent. A patent for correcting other buggy patent!!!!!

Attached Link: http://www.wendy.com/wendyweb/history.html

and then holding BOTH patents at same time would automatically grant you a patent over the patching/bugcorrecting/upgrading concept ? would be the hell of most software publishers ! :)

You must license both patents, the first patent without the second is useless, the same as the second alone.

Concerning the requirement for permission to include certain buildings in a film... If I am filming a fly-over of Los Angeles, but then I want to crash into a famous building, such as the Capitol Records tower or the Hollywood sign, and/or have some action take place in or around these buildings or (for instance) the Ripley's Believe It Or Not store on Hollywood Blvd.... Can anyone tell me: 1) Is it really true this might be a trademark and/or copyright infringement without permission? 2) How do I find out which buildings are protected? ::::: Opera :::::

1 - Yes. 2 - Copyright protection would be for buildings built recently. Truthfully, I need to go and look it up on the copyright website, but the specifics can also be found in the copyright forum here at Renderosity (it's a dig through for posts, but it's there). My rule of thumb is older than 20 years is safe. Might NOT be your rule of thumb. Trademark protection you might be able to find using TESS, but, to be perfectly frank, the buildings involved would likely be the ones you specifically mentioned -- the buildings themselves are distinctive enough to be used as trademarks representing the good s and services housed within. The hollywood sign has some strange issue with it I would need to look up, but I think it's clear. Oddly enough, these companies are paid considerable sums to be used. And, in some cases, pay considerable sums. ynsaen, yes a lot of unnecessary grief is being caused here. This could be put to rest by Rendo's Powers That Be (TM) making a statement. Please could we have a statement, pretty please, pretty please with sugar on top? Well, Cardinal, some statements have been made. In four posts I've seen. And the moderators are trying to get the admins to make a single statement that is easily accessible. Essentially, if it is a work that infringes on someone else's intellectual property, then it is not allowed on renderosity under the terms of service. So now it is up to the members, once again, to know what constitutes that. It's not renderosity's job, but that of each individual member, to know that stuff. There are an awful lot of hobbyists. Heck of a lot more than there are pros or folks in between. THey aren't going to know this stuff. They are doing these things out of love and expression. So they've got a lot of questions. I think those of us who do know sorta have an obligation as members of the community to help answer those questions. I've even been smacked around for it a bit. Had my widdle feewings hurt. Fortunately I'm nutso, so I just keep gettin back up and doing it again. Time for my weekly head examination...

I think what really has folks in a royal snit here is not that 'rosity is enforcing the TOS on copyrights, which is their right but the WAY they're doing it is the problem. They have tore up the free stuff and tossed everything related to tv shows or movies and did it Ex Post Facto, that's the REAL issue here, retroactive enforcement of any rule or law is not allowed with the single exception but we're not talking major crimes here so that exception will remain unexplained here. ANYTHING in free stuff prior to the enforcement edict should NOT have been removed without proper copyright challenge procedure being followed.

I agree. And have stated so. However, while your point would hold true in some circumstances, most assuredly, it would not in any case where the members agreed, prior to having done so, not to upload such content, the action of which, it could be argued, necessitated the ex post facto removal as a precaution against litigation. Which is pretty much what they've said already several times. but I'm not arguing the propriety of the matter. I'm trying to deal, directly, with the end result of the activity.

I said it before and I'll say it again: if "Fan items are IP violations and therefore not permitted under TOS", why did R'osity ever have a film/tv (as in for fan art) category in the first place? Especially since (and I'm paraphrasing here, sorry if this don't come out quite right) "it was always the rule, just never got around to enforcing it until now."

Makes as much sense as saying "Cigarettes are a violation and always have been so we don't permit trade in them -- by the way, don't you just love our cozy little smoking room? What's that? Oh yes, we've had it ever since we built the place."

Now is that muddle-headed or what?

Message edited on: 12/03/2004 21:00

hell, I never said it had to make sense! Sense would require, um, well, you know -- something resembling coordination and long term planning. Sheesh. Sense and renderosity.

"Sense and renderosity." Is this like a honest Ferenghi? :)

ya know..... LOL

Yeah, sometimes ya just gotta laugh. Either that or go totally batty. Then again, they tell me I've already gone there, did it a long, long time ago too. ;-)

"An ideal superior man who, according to Nietzsche, forgoes transient pleasure, exercises creative power, lives at a level of experience beyond standards of good and evil, and is the goal of human evolution. Also called overman. " snicker "Look, up in the sky!" "It's an individual unclouded by notions of good or evil!" "It's a person who condones hedonistic behavior, instead using his creative energies for the good of others!" "It's the Superman!"