well that's yet another extreme comment about Poser's render speed. I have no doubt Vue or Shade are possibly faster than Poser firefly. Are you people SURE it is that extreme? On a single cpu, quality for quality, single frame render? as dlk30341 hinted at above, since Vue, for instance, does not have depth shadow mapping (I have been told), you have to turn ray tracing on, right? or Radiosity or HDRI or GI of something to make up for the lack of depth shadow that renders so beautifully in Poser5, to arrive back at beautiful results. Are you saying that Poser is still HORENDOUSLY slow compared to Vue with Vue's slow-rendering effects turned on? Once again, I am not trying to pick a fight. I own both programs. I have not started working with Vue4Pro yet, it is sittling in a box on my desk. I am looking for clear comparisons and facts, because I prefer to stay in Poser, but am teased by these claims. Thank you, ::::: Opera :::::