"for actually using P5 to make scenes the included manual is actually pretty good" Sorry, but I have to disagree with this statement. For someone who already has (eg) P4 and its manual, then the P5 manual is a semi-reasonable reference. But for 1st-time users the P5 manual does NOT explain enough of the basics to get anyone properly started (you only have to check the threads here to see that). Also, the P5 manual tends to lack detail. So many of the explanations are of the form "the widget dial controls the amount of the widget in effect" without explaining WHAT the widget actually does, nor when, where or why you should use it. All that being said, at least it comes with P5:-) I DO strongly agree with searching out Dr Geep's tutorials. They (and there over 100 of them; Sheesh! how does he do it??) cover (almost) everything, from basic principles to advanced stuff. Cheers, Diolma