Thanks, Fran But I still have a couple of questions. I went to the Apophysis website and downloaded 2.02. But I have not installed it because windows tells me it may not be safe because "the publisher could not be verified." Does this sound suspicious to you? I have not seen it before. Another question is that I thought I remembered reading somewhere that Apophysis can only run as an add-on to UltraFractal, which must be bought. Does that sound right? I guess I don't want to install it unless I first decide to buy ultrafractal if that is the case. I have the impression that xenodream does not make flames, as I am beginning to understand them (I hope). Way back in 1979 I spent a month in Perth and got out and about in W Australia and loved it. Do I understand correctly that you are lucky enough to live there? I live in Minnesota , USA, and it is a very nice place in many ways, but I would take Perth of 79 if I had the choice.