Thanks xenodreamsoftware. So if I understand correctly all your own excellent posts were rendered in xenodream itself. They are not 3d objects exported to other programs. Then, if I want (and I do) to export a XD obj to poser or vue, I would have to figure out how to testure it myself in poser or vue. Right? I have never used the UV mapper, but I suppose I could learn if I thought it would do what I wanted. Do you know, would that be difficult? I am not great at this stuff. I am enjoying playing with Apophysis,which I just got a couple of days ago, but I will also certainly want to buy Xenodream if I can retexture objs easily in another 3d program. I might get it anyway. You guys are right, these programs are very different! I have also played with fractal explorer, which is great fun, but seems very different from the two that we are discussing here. Thanks again also to Fran for the tips on Apophysis. which has been fun. I also saw your tips elsewhere for reducing the graininess, which so far for me has been a limitation. I don't ALWAYS want it there. I have been able to reduce it significanly in display, have not tried high quality renders. "Sample density" in the help file does not show up in the options box in my version (the latest) as it says it should and so I have not yet figured out what they are talking about. And they don't indicate what the possible range is anyway. Phil