...to take the next step!

You are invited to send in submissions to be considered for publication in "Renderosity Volume 2: Digital Art in the 21st Century", published by AAPPL and Renderosity.
If selected you will have the unique opportunity to be:

1. Published in a high-end art book.
2. Worldwide distribution through Renderosity, AAPPL, bookstores, amazon, etc.
3. Sent to at least 2,000 ad agencies in US and Europe with your contact details...
4. Sent to key newspapers and websites for review.
   5)There will be a limited number of hardback "Collector's Editions" published at $35 per copy. All published artists will receive a FREE hardback "Collector's Edition".

Click here for more details: http://www.renderosity.com/book

Best wishes,
Lillian Hawkins
Renderosity Marketing & Promotions

Submission fee? You're asking for a submission fee?

yeah right - good luck with the submissions if WE have to Pay YOU for the right for YOU to use OUR artwork! Bloody hell.... YOU get the money from the sale of the book yet we're the ones who have to pay for the priviledge!????!!!! And then there's no guarrentee the piece will even be included, and no refund!?!!....!!? I suggest you go have a look at the cgtalk.com Expose 3 book at Ballistic Publishing. They get 4000 entries from around the world and are far more successful at the production of the book. - why? - because they don't bust the artists for money upfront! sits in stunned disbelief Sean

Attached Link: http://www.spectrumfantasticart.com/faqs.html

erm no. forget it. I can get into magazines like Computer Arts, CGtalk etc with the same chances of publication for free, with the same level of exposure for my work, again for free. no dice.

if we pay you for a submission and they reject our work - do we get our money back ?

in answer from the first link "Submission Fees (non-refundable): There is a $20.00 submission fee for the first image and $10.00 for each additional image up to 5 (five) total. (Credit Card payments only.) (Please understand the panel may select any single image, or combination of images. They are not required to select all works from any particular submission or artist. Selection is competitive. There is no guarantee that any of your submitted images will be selected. The panel's decision is final and is not open to debate. Renderosity and AAPPL will not enter into correspondence about the selection process.)"

I don't have a problem with the submission fee. As Lillian says, it is a common practice in art books. Ever try to get into the Illustrators Annual? OIn the other hand, if I actually had 20 bucks I'd more likely be spending it on food.

How can you possibly justify charging someone for submitting their pictures to a book that you intend to make a profit from? You cover your production costs by SELLING the book and putting those costs into the final price, not by asking for upfront fees. What if I wanted to buy a car and the manufacturer said that before they build it I have to pay them a fee to start it? - not going to happen is it? That's just blatantly unfair and a really good argument for why is put out by the ballistic pub people for their "Expose 3" book (which I know a lot of rendo artists are participating in having seen the submitted entries thumbs already - audre for one is there with bells on - why? BECAUSE IT'S FREE PERHAPS!???) see the link --> http://www.ballisticpublishing.com/books/expose3/callforentries/cgcommunity_benefits.php I am not going to pay anybody for them to maybe accept what I submit. You know I'm one of the greatest supporters of the rendo products such as the Best of DVD (it took me ages and all sorts of email to get the pencillers permissions for that one), RIM etc but you've lost me on this one. Yes I'm submitting to Expose though - why? because it's FREE! On another note I hope that you are going to feature more of the other galleries this time around and not just have the poser/3D stuff dominating like last time. Sean

It may be common practice but it is kind of "stinky" to have those who submit pay for the cost of publication which then makes it pure profit when it sells since the fees were paid for upfront by others and you and AAPL are not Spectrum.

I'm not saying I wont do it - I'll consider it but I doubt I'd get in grin. Just saying that it is a bit off-putting to pay for exposure in a product where the profits aren't shared and royalties aren't paid.

BTW - I have to highlight that entire page to read it as it's set on that off grey colour and I am using the site colours set the way the desingner for this set intended - if you want to hard code the colour for the bqackground in - how about doing the same for the text?

Message edited on: 02/01/2005 21:02

yes, JURIED shows have a fee. is this a JURIED show PAYING the artist if they are chosen? ( Legallly required in juried shows, to pay CASH to winner )

If you pay is for something, paying and receiving nothing in return does not work. Charity is another thing, you give something without expecting to receive anything in return.

I'm confused - do chosen artists get any payment other than one copy of the Collector's Edition? $20 submission fee is exhorbitant, by the way.

So, we give you money, you keep it no matter what, and you also keep all the proceeds from the book and don't pay the artists anything at all, is that right? Now where does that Bridge in Brooklyn come in, again? Just wondering. :) bonni

Bonni I had a similar thought.

Why doe'snt rosity just start selling swampland in florida to people, billing it as "waterfront property."

They'd make more even more money at that.

An "open call" is not one in wich you have to pay 20.00 bucks to get in the door. How bout some truth in advertising guys?

Message edited on: 02/02/2005 04:50

Attached Link: http://www.theartlist.com

Sorry if there is any confusion. I will do my best to clarify any questions you might have.

The images for "Renderosity: Volume 2" will selected by a panel. The compensation to the selected artists is shown in my original post to this thread.

In viewing the other calls to artists on www.theartlist.com compensation to selected artists is not necessarily monetary.

Here is an example, "DIRECT ART VOLUME 12" as shown on theartlist.com. The fee is $30 for the first image, and $5 for each additional image. The compensation offered is being published in their magazine.

Thanks,
Lillian

Lillian, having one image published in a full-color book is a FAR cry from the cover and a 6-page article in a magazine. In the latter case, the artist gets prominent exposure in that magazine. In the case of this book, all images will get equal treatment and exposure.

Also, the publishers of DirectArt magazine appear not to have a store that would have the potential of subsidizing publishing costs.

Message edited on: 02/02/2005 11:10

Pay for being published?? HEHEHEHEHE No gracias!!!!

Attached Link: http://www.delmar.edu/art/show/

Attached Link: http://www.mypublisher.com/default.php

Again, this is not comparing apples to apples.

In the Del Mar College show, the "winners" are competing for the possibility of winning prizes, including a $1000 purchase award or a $700 purchase for the Del Mar College permanent collection.

I see no such "prize" offered here. What Renderosity is proposing is that anyone who gets published in the book gets equal exposure. Everyone "wins" the same amount, and the only monetary reward is a book that cost Renderosity less to print per copy than the artist paid in submission fees.

Message edited on: 02/02/2005 12:40

It might be one thing to pay a fee to get into the book, that is a somewhat common practice on the net with 'art books' though most professionals advise against it. But paying for the privledge to be considered, with the serious likely hood of not getting in rates as a 'scam' in some states and countries. Not to mention the ethics behind having the artist pay to publish a book that Renderosity wants to make a profit off of by selling. Seems like 'rosity gets it's the cake and the pleasure of eating it too.

"Not to mention the ethics behind having the artist pay to publish a book that Renderosity wants to make a profit off of by selling. Seems like 'rosity gets it's the cake and the pleasure of eating it too." That's exactly why I have a bad taste in my mouth about this. If they're confident the book will be a success, and get the amount of exposure they have said, then why not just take the risk as a publisher and allow the sales to offset the expense? This 'submission fee' tactic isn't really a gift to the artists, it's a way for a company to make optimal profitability, while not having to pay the artists any kind of subsequent royalty at all from the sales, nor a commission for their content... regardless of how much money they do generate in the end. It's a proven business strategy that, if successful, takes away virtually all the financial risk from the publisher and basically trickles it down to the content providers. Even though it may be a fairly common practice for art publications to utilize this strategy, it certainly doesn't give a great opportunity to the artists. I can't imagine an independant film producer requiring anyone who wants to audition for a starring role in the film to pay a fee. It may happen, but it's very rare. Usually producers raise funds from 3rd party sources, or their own pockets. I think something like a revshare plan, where each paying participant acts like a "shareholder" in that they each get a small cut of the book's sales, with the possibility of making their money back (or better) over time, is a much better strategy. You'd get a lot more people interested in such a venture, and a lot more paying participants to aid in the initial publication expense. It would be like an "investment" for everyone who contributes, even if they don't get selected for the publication. Sure, there's risk involved there too, but it's softened by the assurance of regaining at least some of your investment, with the possibility of making a profit for everyone involved. Just a thought.

Sorry, I'm working on a magazine now that doesn't require this fee up front. Try again.

To be fair, none of the comments so far have taken account of this part of the call: "Sent to at least 2,000 ad agencies in US and Europe with your contact details..." In other words, the first 2000 copies of the book are being given away FREE, with contact details in them, to the Art Directors you might normally be willing to give an arm if they'd take a look at your work.

Man, I feel bad about everybody's attitude toward this. I really do. Grow up people. Jesus chrysler.

"Sent to at least 2,000 ad agencies in US and Europe with your contact details..." Is this solicited or unsolicited? If this was an established publication, with a good reputation, I could certainly understand a submission fee. If it is solicited, then I might even consider it if I were ready to take on work. If this will be unsolicited mailings, then I can't say I'd be likely to pay for submission in a publication that could very well end up in 1,997 "circular files". If it were being sent to 20,000 or more agencies,unsolicited, the odds would be better, making the fee worthwhile. Perhaps it might be wiser to do as Taschen did, with "Digital Beauties", and solicit specific artists. No submission fee, but one or two hard copies of the book would probably be sufficient. This seems more like a cattle call. Do auditions usually require a fee?

"Sent to at least 2,000 ad agencies in US and Europe with your contact details..." The problem I have with this is that regardless of the 2000 ad agencies, there's only a tiny chance your artwork will be in the book in the first place. You've still paid your $20... for nothing. >Yes, I read that, but guess what: I seriously doubt they will send 2000 HARDCOPY books to Art Directors. >Sounds to me more along the line of sending 2000 e-books, hmmm ? The included artists get a collector's edition, which is hard copy - this implies that the regular book is paperback(??). I would hope they wouldn't send a huge, unsolicited PDF ebook to 2000 email addresses!

"Sounds to me more along the line of sending 2000 e-books, hmmm?" With respect, that's a kind of asinine suggestion. Of course they're talking about physical books. When I've been art directing, I've received similar annuals, and believe me they don't get thrown out, as someone suggested. Artists I know who've been in them have all said they've received commissions as a result, and sometimes a lot of commissions. (My guess is that this is because art directors find the books ideal for glomming through while riding in the subway, sitting in the john, whatever.) Most such books in fact charge very high fees to artists to get a page, which is of course guaranteed; here you're being asked for a fairly nominal entrance fee to a competition, but obviously have no such guarantee ... because it's a competition, no? A bit swings-and-roundabouts as to which is the better approach.

.

because it's a competition, no? A bit swings-and-roundabouts as to which is the better approach. Actually, if you pay for something with no guarantee of services rendered, I'd rather call it a "gamble".

"Actually, if you pay for something with no guarantee of services rendered, I'd rather call it a 'gamble'." Which is one of the reasons I myself never go in for contests, but lots of other people do enter them, and lots of other people do well out of them. And many if not most of those competitions have entry fees. Indeed, I think (may be wrong) that $20 is way at the low end of what the entry fees for these contests usually are.

Okay, This is a reminder to keep posts, comments and images within the TOS. I respect and understand differing perspectives on this. However, keep it civil and within the guidelines. Thank you, LillianH Renderosity Admin.

1. Sounds like they could have worded this a lot better! Or they really haven't thought this through properly. 2. Is Audre going to be involved in this one? I have a copy of the first book and it was really nicely selected and put together. 3. Was the original volume a competition like this, or was it just selected from the site? 4. Who are the panel of judges going to be?

Bonestructure,
It is not a matter of growing up to ask questions regarding money situations and what can be expected from cash laid out. If I'm going to take a chance on a contest that costs money to enter, I certainly want to know the specific details and whether or not that investment is a sound gamble or not.

It may be for some who have the kind of art that Rosity generally looks for when deciding these things. Mine is not, judging from past experience, so I'll pass. No sense in wasting $20 for nothing. But good luck to those that do.

ShadowWind

ShadowWind

"It may be for some who have the kind of art that Rosity generally looks for when deciding these things. "

Now you wouldn't be referring to nekkid vicky's and mike's holding up swords to the sky for some unknown reason would ya?

LOL

Message edited on: 02/03/2005 02:31

Message edited on: 02/03/2005 02:32

Sounds to me more along the line of sending 2000 e-books, hmmm?" With respect, that's a kind of asinine suggestion. Of course they're talking about physical books. >>Yeah, right. Whatever you say When I've been art directing, I've received similar annuals, and believe me they don't get thrown out, as someone suggested. Artists I know who've been in them have all said they've received commissions as a result, and sometimes a lot of commissions. (My guess is that this is because art directors find the books ideal for glomming through while riding in the subway, sitting in the john, whatever.) Most such books in fact charge very high fees to artists to get a page, which is of course guaranteed; here you're being asked for a fairly nominal entrance fee to a competition, but obviously have no such guarantee ... because it's a competition, no? A bit swings-and-roundabouts as to which is the better approach.<<<<< HMMMMM, if all what you say is true, when WHY DO EACH AND ANY PROFESSIONAL ARTISTS WARN you to NEVER EVER PAY for being published ??? Aaah, must be because they dont want anybody else to know how easy it is to get recognized and become rich and famous, eh ? :-) stahlratte

Actually I wasn't BDC. I've seen them pick a lot of non-vicky with a sword images for these books and DVD's. We all know who is considered excellent artists at Rosity and they are indeed, but it's a lot harder when not on that list and gain favor especially if one isn't known in the proper circles.

"It is not a matter of growing up to ask questions regarding money situations and what can be expected from cash laid out." If those concerns had been raised in a polite and professional manner, I'd not have had a problem. But many of them weren't. People acted like this was some huge conspiracy to rip them off. It isn't. This isn't an unusual situation in the art world for this kind of publication. And the fee is really pretty low compared to some other rather illustrious and better known books. No one's forcing anyone to submit to this. If you don't like it, okay, your prerogative. But why reply with such anger? I don't find myself supporting rosity very damn often these days. I'm not liking a LOT of what they've been doing. But in this case, they're trying to do a good thing, create some exposure and make a few bucks. If you don't like it, don't participate. Simple as that. But why pitch a hissy fit about it?

I need to know who will be on the "jury panel". I certainly am not going to fork out that kind of money to have my work judged and selected by anyone that works for this site, some of them are not known to be the most "impartial" or fair people. Sorry if some don't like that, but I've seen way too many conflicts between members and staff here.

In addition, if this book were only going to be distributed to art directors then I could see paying the fees, however, Renderosity will probably also offer this book in the marketplace at (US) $35.00 each. That's the potential to make plenty. If the site wants the profit...let the site make the investment!!!

"HMMMMM, if all what you say is true, when WHY DO EACH AND ANY PROFESSIONAL ARTISTS WARN you to NEVER EVER PAY for being published ???" But you're not paying for being published, are you? You're paying an entry fee for a contest. If your work's a winner then you're getting paid for it -- certainly at the very least with a copy of that limited-edition hardback they're talking about. And you're getting kind of dream exposure of your work in a showcase volume mailed to lots of art directors. So where exactly is your beef? Like thumbcrew, I think this could have been a lot better worded at the outset, but really the whole venture is fairly standard industry practice. And, like bonestructure says, if that's not the way you want to go, your solution's pretty simple: don't enter the contest.

Oh, there's one thing I'd like to see clarified. In the Spectrum competition there are winners in various categories -- can't remember what the categories are, but they're something like Best Oils, Best Monochrome, etc. Are there going to be similar category winners here? And, like several people have said, it'd be good to know who're going to be the judges. That makes two things, not one. Okay, okay ...

anyone ran the figures yet? hmmm? I make it easy for you all that say this is a goood thing. the lst book was 160 pages. say 155 images. next we factor in the print run. thats 10,000 units minimum for most printshops, you can get less, but the less you print the more they charge. as in double the cost on each book. (I worked a few printers). cost of first book : $24.95. times that by 10000 times images by $20 add together. cost of printing is about 5% of the coverprice (unless you are going for a smaller unit run than 10K, then it can range from 10% to 50% - not a good idea from the economic point of view.) so... whats the gross total? and who gets it? you forget. the books and gallery's are not also selling this book in "Worldwide distribution through Renderosity, AAPPL, bookstores, amazon, etc."

Khai -- how much of that $24.95 do you think the publisher receives?

put it this way ideal conditions ok? the cash that can be generated is quarter of a millon dollars. thats if ideal conditions are met, eg a 10K run (the smallest most printers will consider - setting up for anything less is a waste of time and money), the book is not undersold etc. as it is, a good estimate would be about 75% of that. who gets it? sure as hell ain't gonna be the persons doing the real work. the Artists. if anyone wants to waste their money on this kind of deal, have fun!

Khai, as a rule of thumb, publishers are very lucky to clear 10% of the cover price of a book, after the bills have been paid - printing, origination, you name it. And that's on the copies they actually sell, not the total they print. I don't know the printers you're dealing with who won't touch anything under 10,000 copies. Most of the books that are published today don't have a print-run that large, so I can only assume you're talking about magazine printers ... but even they would be in difficulties with a policy like that, because there are plenty of color mags with print-runs under 10,000, often a lot under 10,000. At a guess, Spectrum - which has a high reputation - sells about 4000 copies, perhaps double that if it can get a book club deal (but the margins on book club deals are infinitesimal). So take your own figures, plug in reality rather than fantasy as the numerical values, take into account the production and mailing of those 2000 copies to art directors, and see how the math works out now.

the same I've worked in 5 printers in the UK. none of which would touch under 10K. thats books btw. plus they always had more orders than they could fill with their capacity. all my numbers are based on UK real values. sorry if that does not fit your world view, but thats life. as to "So take your own figures, plug in reality rather than fantasy as the numerical values, take into account the production and mailing of those 2000 copies to art directors, and see how the math works out now." get off your high horse and don't be insulting. just because you, yourself have not been there it does not mean someone else is wrong.

The numbers in England must be much higher because british people read a lot of books.

and books are cheap in the UK! you seen the sodding prices in the US or Canada??? I wanted to pick up the latest Dune book the other day. UK Price 15.99. US $24.99 CA $35.99 yes you can convert the currency.. but thats a false reading. when you are living there, a dollar is a dollar and a pound is a pound. on the ground you work with what you have. the books the same. but the value changes. that book is worth 1.5 times it's value in the US and almost 2.5 times it's value in Canada. same book tho! how can a pair of countries where everything else is so cheap have books at prices that are so expensive?

when you are living there, a dollar is a dollar I hav ealways thought this funny as well, people worked up about how the canadian dollar is so low, btu living here in canada my dollar will buy what an american dollar will buy in the states, a can of coke in a vending machine. The only time I get a better deal is selling online cause I sell in USD rather then CAN cause it seems that this decade that the USD is the norm for online splurging. I do not have a comment on the book other then it reminds me an awful lot of poetry.com

"UK Price 15.99. US $24.99" At the moment, with the USD rate against Sterling something like 1.9, that means the US copy is about 10% cheaper than the UK one. "get off your high horse and don't be insulting. just because you, yourself have not been there it does not mean someone else is wrong." But I have been there. That's where I got my figures from.