Chrisjol, Then what about deciding upon characters or abbreviations to distinguish and group like items... if presets had a special symbol it wouldn't matter if they were top or bottom in the list, they'd be together and we'd recognize them as the presets. Sort of like the difference between a hand and a bunch of fingers? something like the @ which looks all-encompassing. If those symbols didn't involve the deservedly maligned exclamation marks, it would separate logic from foolishness. Carolly