Holy crud. So you lose the ambient when you render?? I hadn't realized that. I will take a look. I am using P4, but I have P5 installed downstairs on that computer. That sure makes no sense to me at all. Maybe it has to do with the render engine on P5? What happens if you use the P4 renderer on P5? I guess I can find out for myself but if you happen to try that, please let me know.