referring to post 29 and 32 above, and my suggestion that the topic be taken to the "off topic" forum.... In a thread at the end of November in which I participated...Shoshona warned the forum and we took the conversation to "The Den." There, the argument accellerated and at some point after I left the discussion, the thread was frozen. Today, I do not see a forum called "The Den." Either I am not looking in the right place, or the forum has been withdrawn. Again, this is not a complaint just a point of information. ::::: Opera :::::