i'm thinking that, yes, the ridge of the brow would not be pushed back, or only very subtly. And yes, the area between the bony ridge and the eyelid crease does come forward a bit, and the chine is more subtle. It comes to making a more delicate face in the eye areas. Not as flat as an Asiatic face, but somewhere on the continuum. Struck out on a sock morph? This sounds like a story. :^) Agreed about the negative z-trans on the eyeball, setting the eyes back into the skull is not really the issue. Thanks for the discussion--this is interesting! You say you use RDS? i wish i could figure out how to manipulate the meshes with my copy of RDS! --Nan still on the steep side of the learning curve!