And a permanent BAN is supposed to be permanent, and only used against the worst offenders... people who poisen a community, deliberately hurt other members, or who disrupt the operations of a site. He is not a member. He is banned. He is not one of us. It is like being "outlawed", which was one of the few ways the Vikings dealt with offensive people. They had no jails and death was reserved for people practicing harmful witchcraft. For minor crimes a fine could be imposed. For major or repeated offenses the person was banned and put outside the protections of the law... this meant no food, no shelter, no entitlement to payments... Nothing. They usually had so many days to leave the country... and if they returned, they could be killed on sight by anybody without penalty and without bloodprice. If they couldn't live within the law, they were outside its protections. (Our word "law" is from the Old Norse, as is the concept of trial by a jury of one's peers.) Here on the Internet, we have few ways to protect members of society from baneful influences. If somebody continues to be unsocial despite warnings, the only recourse is to outlaw them. A banned member is outside the community. If they return, what then? Decide the laws don't apply to anybody and leave the community open to anarchy as all the animals shred each other? Or enforce the law and evict the trespasser each and every time he enters a place where he has been thrown out? Laws knit a society and without them, this will all unravel into the nastiest feuds and flamewars you can possibly imagine. If a site declares that someone is permanently banned, they have an obligation to all members to enforce that ban. If a site will not stand behind its rules, why should we? Carolly