Ok....I'm serious about upgrading now. This old boy is getting slower and slower!! The new computer will only be used to run: Poser 5, Vue 4/5, DAZ Studio, Shade, Bryce 5 Psp 9 and Frontpage. Every computer I've looked at (the P4's) come with Hyperthreading technology. I know that Poser doesn't use it and will only see one of those 2 "virtual" processors. Does anyone know about Vue, Bryce, DAZ Studio and the like? If I go with a P4, will getting the largest processor possible compensate for the hyperthreading nonsense? AMD may be a better option. However, at CL's site they say this: "Recently we've seen problems cropping up that stem from Windows XP Service Pack 2's implementation of data execution prevention (a security feature designed to help prevent some kinds of Trojans and viruses from executing)- on 64-bit AMD-based machines in particular, installing both our Service Release 4.1 updater and Windows XP SP2 prevents Poser from launching. We're working towards a fix for this, but for the moment we urge high-end AMD-based Poser users to hold off on installing SP2 until we can get a new service release out. If you have installed SP2 and require its features, you can run Poser in safe mode; this is not a convenient solution but it should allow Poser to run." Not a convenient solution is right!! I would guess that a new computer is going to have Windows XP SP2 automatically installed. Microsoft has been promoting the hell out of it because of the security features I guess. So...what is one to do here! I need an affordable system, which will limit how much customizing I can do. I'll probably purchase a seperate nVidia card with at least 128 mb of ram, as "stock" systems often come with a stupid chipset on the motherboard that uses system ram and isn't compatible with anything. I would guess the FSB and L2 Cache specifications are important as well. I currently use 1G of ram and will probably get at least 2 on a new machine. Is dual channel ram the best way to go? Any help here is appreciated. I've put this off long enough.

Attached Link: http://support.microsoft.com/kb/875352

Intel's starting to use DEP as well on some new P4s. Apparently you can disable it. Perhaps that would work for Poser.

Thanks lmckenzie. That is good information and it does look like you can "opt out" certain applications or disable it entirely.

That's what it reads like to me. You might want to contact CL and ask them if they think it will work. At any rate, if you're only going to be using the system for your graphics apps and not 'net browsing, I wouldn't woory too much about having DEP or SP2 for that matter. I'd go with AMD but then I'm partisan, never owned an Intel CPU.

Poser failure to launch: I have AMD 64 3500+ and am running XPPro SP2 latest patches as they emerge. Never a worry. Runs fantastic. mckenzie, having just been thru intense analysis of this subject (if you wish you can go to "Poser Technical" forum and search for "Optimal Poser Rig"), my informed belief is that these are the key hardware focus, in order of importance. Others will proabably disagree. 1) 64-bit AMD Athlon, not Intel 2) most expensive CPU you can afford 3) 1MB L2 Cache, not 512K; Socket 939 4) 2Gig RAM 5) Fast Hard Drive,possibly dual Raptors in Raid-0 array 6) Proper configuration of page file. not "bad" but not worth the money if they compromise 1-5 above: 2 additional GIG RAM Big budget video card ::::: Opera :::::

Sounds good to me Opera, though not being a hardware guru, I can't really offer an informed opinion. For my personal needs, development, general use and a bit of 3D dabbling, I'd probably skip the most expensive CPU and maybe even 64 bit. It'll all be cheaper in a year or so and the application support will hopefully be there. When there's a stable 64 bit Windows/Visual Studio/SQL Server, then 64 bit will be of more interest to me. No mega-graphics card for me either, no games and no help in speeding up POVRay or Poser rendering. I think I might go for a pair of Athlon MPs. Of course, it's all academic until I win the lottery and then a quad Opteron will do nicely along with an Nvidia Quadro FX and Maya 5's hardware rendering support.

In the same week that intel launched their new 64bit CPU... AMD (accidently on purpose) demonstrated a dual core Athlon! (Thats two Athlons on the same chip)

You might want to wait untill Poser 6 ships and see what hardware it supports( hyperthreading, dual CPUs, etc), before making any final plans. Even if you don't plan on getting P6 right away, you probably well in the near furture judging from your software list. Personally I would stay away from RAID-0 arrays, if one drive fails you lose everything on both drives. Instead get an external harddrive (USB2 or Firewire) to use a backup. Always have a backup! Be a good scout - BE PREPARED

Why don't you keep your old 'puter for internet use and build your new one as a 3D stand-alone one. That way you could use whatever OS you want e.g. 2k Pro without these conflict problems with AMD. Use a nework or mobile drive via Firewire/USB 2 port to transfer and store files. Eventually when your new beast ages (and it will!) and you decide to build another new one, move the beast to internet duty. I keep cycling my computers this way and get years of service out of them. The net does not require the latest and greatest hardware like 3D. Just my thoughts

[note: Raid-0 means you have two physical hard drives and software that makes them 'appear' to be one volume. The advantage is the "sys" can read and write at the same time, (or write or read simultaneously, for that matter.) This is FAST]

In my opinion, an objection to Raid-0 for the reason davidgibson cites telegraphs a possible lack of a healthy backup policy.

What's the difference if your SINGLE drive primary fails or a DUAL drive primary array fails? It's exactly the same result....you lose everything on the volume, period. One should always consider THE PRIMARY SYS (of whatever config) ALREADY DEAD; nothing you are writing your work to is alive, secure, permanent or solid.

I contend that a Raid-0 array as primary is HIGHLY reliable, because in general the drives are higest quality, more ruggedly built, better cooled and monitored, with better MTBF than generic ATA drives. This easily makes up for the fact that with two physical mechanisms, twice as much can go wrong. I'll take the giant gain in read/write speed over that any day. [PRICE? $125x2, my motherboard had RAID-0 Support built in, and XP Pro handles it transparenly after initial config. What's that you say, $250 for only a 72 Gig volume, way overpriced? I would be open to a SMALLER config, say 20x2 for around $179, because this IS NOT STORAGE. It is only a maximum speed working directory. But the high-quality 10,000 RPM drives don't really come that small or cheap.]

Having an internal primary with an external as backup is the BEGINNING of a smart backup system. As a complete backup system, it is a disaster waiting to happen.

My "internal" is a dual Raptor 37x2 Raid-0 array. As soon as I write anything important to it, I copy out to my external firewire 250Gig...so...I never "store" anything on the internal (it's "already dead.")

Then, I have a double off-site deep backup: I upload significant new files to an out-of-the-way corner of my webserver (you can get such a service without actually having a full-blown webserver) and ALSO write the files to a DVD and TAKE THE DISC OFFSITE. The disks go into a safety deposit box, joining all my original install CDs.

If my rig is stollen or burned or earthquaked (I live in California), my insurance re-buys the hardware, I go to the remote source and reload all OS, Applications and production files from DVD.

That's Eagle Scout backup.

::::: Opera :::::

I DO agree about waiting for Poser6, or at least until the full announcement of it's capabilites. It might have hardware support on render (although I doubt it) and that would make a big difference in your decision. Storm....I do just want you said, sliding sys's along as hardware gets better/faster/cheaper. And building a new 3D optimized rig is very smart. You can back out a LOT of junk processes and internet garbage, and that really helps optimize for render speed. ::::: Opera :::::

Attached Link: http://abspc.com/

WOW Opera! That is an impressive degree of dedication to backup. :) I have a Raid-0 array (2 120 gig SATA drives W00T! :D) and it is exactly like having one huge Hard drive, BUT get an external drive and USE IT to back up every week.

Now I'd like to reccomend a company. I'm not the type who likes to build his own comp (sure I can slap a new video card in, but I don't wanna mess with more than that.)

In the past I had owned 2 Dells and had been fairly satisfied, but my desire for more quality parts (and in particular a Bios that wasn't neutered -_-) I started shopping around for Gaming PCs. In the end I found ABS. What I liked about ABS was that they have really good quality parts, but they are cheap... almost as cheap as building it your self. They also have a good reputation for speed and stability. They will build you basically any configuration you want, but they can't gaurantee stability if you get too far out. :p

Oh and For God's sake get 2 gigs of high quality RAM.

Message edited on: 03/04/2005 10:25

Thats a probabilities thing, about the increased risk of failure inherent in striped raid. I think the equation is: Get it running just how you want it = imminent failure

The reason I am gung ho on multiple offsite backups is because I have witnessed two truly tragic major irretrevable losses, one by a friend, one by a client, who had quite intense and beautiful backup policy in place, but never took offsite. One lost EVERYTHING by theft of sys+backup, the other in a fire in which all HD AND ALL BACKUPS were melted. ::::: Opera :::::

Attached Link: http://pcclub.com

That's a fine approach, Berserga, and looks like a good company. I followed that exact policy on my last system, coming very close to purchasing components/build (as I usually do) but this time had PC Club build and burn in the system for me. They gave me great prices and charged $199 to build, raid-o, ghost and burn in sys (2 days of bench tests of RAM and HDs.)

It was worth it.

::::: Opera :::::

Prikshatk, if i understand what you are saying, your "Get it running just how you want it = imminent failure" is the same as my "consider your primary setup already dead." ::::: Opera :::::

Hi all and thanks for the input! A couple of notes: I have no intention of ever buying Poser 6 :) CL simply hasn't impressed me much. I would expect (based on CL's history) to see all kinds of problems with it initially. Plus, I don't see them moving away from the very things that vendors still aren't supporting. Look in the marketplace and you'll see that most Poser products are still being created for PP and P4. Anyway....I'm not going to spend much time talking about that. So...my goal is to have a computer that will run Poser 5, so I can export .pz3's to render in Vue5 :) Daz Studio has a much better chance of being properly tested and eventually replacing Poser for me. Storm mentioned computer recycling. I agree....simply because you can't get rid of the old junk! I currently have a Pentium I 166, a Pentium II 266, a Pentium III, and the computer I'm on now...a PIV, 1.7ghz. I had that PI on a yard sale, complete with two monitors, speakers, creative labs sound card and modem for $25. I even had it running so they could see that it worked......no takers. Next year the PI will be in the "free" pile. That's another reason I'm no longer willing to spend a lot on computers....they become obsolete quicker than cars!

well then, we've been giving you the wrong advice because you were not honest about your approach...you said you were serious about upgrading and we took your word...we've been suggesting the best program, Poser 5 leading to 6 and that you spend a lot on hardware because that's the best thing to do for success with Poser. Sorry. ::::: Opera ::::: P.S. I doubt Storm shares your reasoning about older sys becoming "junk", and neither do I...just the opposite. Usefull, still, AND you go out and spend good money on yourself so you always have the best primary system. J.

Sorry Operaguy....I was totally honest. I said I was serious about upgrading my computer....I am. The very first sentence explained that. If you take a look at my software list you won't see a mention of Poser 6 anywhere. What's listed there for software is what I already have and need to run....nothing more. My current PIV is simply getting too slow to run what I have efficiently. I would have simply purchased a new video card if I could expand the memory on my current computer to more than 1G and if it had USB 2 instead of 1.1. I also think I was very clear in stating I needed an affordable system. I also addressed two key concerns: the HT technology and the issue with AMD and DEP. Both you and lmckenzie gave some good tips on the latter. Maybe you should re-read my original post before jumping up and down. As for the old hardware: anything that you can't sell and no longer have a use for, becomes "junk". Sometimes your junk is someone elses treasure, but so far I have not been able to find that elusive "treasure hunter".

sandoppe,

Unless you do a lot of multitasking, say working in Poser while rendering in Vue, There will be no real advantage to HT. I don't know if Vue is optimized for HT, but if it isn't, you won't get much of a boost in performance in Vue with HT(maybe even reduced performance, which is typical with apps that aren't optimized for HT).

The only real advantage for using non HT optimized apps with HT systems is for processing in the background (rendering) while doing some fairly heafty work with another application. So, if you don't do a lot of multitasking, or you won't be putting a heavy interactive load on the processor with the "foreground" or working app. while rendering in the background, then an AMD or non HT based system will do just fine.

(Actually, at the speed the high end machines run now, you might well be very happy without HT, and rendering while working, it really depends on how you use the machine).

Good Luck!

Thanks DustRider :) Based on what I'm hearing at other forums as well, I think you might be right. That's the direction I'm leaning at this point, along with a decent nvidia card and lots of ram. Thanks again!

sandoppe; Do those other computers work? If so, you have a nice little rendergarden all ready to be assembled. All you would need is a 4 port KVM switch (to run the renderboxes with one keyboard, mouse, and monitor) and a 5 port switch to connect to your main system. Load Win2k in a minimal set up, and Vue should be able to use all of them (the first box in my rendergarden was an original Athlon 700 with all of 384megs of PC-133 sdram). Youi could even configure one of them to let you surf while the main system is tied up with managing a render. Vue is optimized for hyperthreading, but I would recommend AMD. An Athlon 64 is an excellent chip, and if you get the socket 939 version, then all you will have to do to use the dual core chips coming later this year is flash your BIOS. And two physical cores will beat two virtual cores any day...except in benchmarks geared to make the virtual cores look better.... >:) Plus the fact that AMD simply does not have the thermal issues that Intel currently has.

I'll say that Macs hold their value longer and ARE recyclable.

Sandoppe, My suggestion to you would be to get a book or a good friend who knows about building computers and build one yourself versus pre-built. Most times the items you buy will carry a longer warranty that that offered by Dell, Gateway, IBM etc. Also the ability to shop different areas will result in a significant savings. My next project, once I save up the duccants is going to be a dual XEON 3.6, 4 gig of ddr2, a terrabyte of sata hard drive, no raids for me, diamond fire gl v700 graphics cards, and of course the typical r/w cd dvd drives. I have priced Dell, Alienware, IBM and the works. Their prices are $7K-$11K. I have gone to pricewatch.com and found all the parts I need for $4500. This way you get what you want and take a bit of pride when you fire up your monster and can go "Thats MY baby"

Attached Link: http://searchstorage.techtarget.com/sDefinition/0,,sid5_gci944596,00.html

1st time I've seen the 't' word (terabyte - one 'r') outside the enterprise datacenter context. The times, they are 'a changin' :-)

The complete works of Shakespeare 5 megabytes
A pickup truck filled with books 1 gigabyte
50,000 trees made into paper printed 1 terabyte
All U.S. academic research libraries 2 petabytes
All words ever spoken by human beings 5 exabytes

Why don't you keep your old 'puter for internet use and build your new one as a 3D stand-alone one.... I keep cycling my computers this way and get years of service out of them. The net does not require the latest and greatest hardware like 3D. STORM

FYI 2 mos. ago I got a new computer exactly like the one Operaguy listed, except 1 Raptor and no RAID. I try to keep XP updated and no problems running Poser so far (though I will doubtless have one now for saying this).

A Question to STORM: My plan was to do exactly what you said and use my old computer for Internet. That plan lasted about a half an hour. I am too lazy to physically move to the other computer. I buy, download, and upload so much stuff (90%+ being Poser stuff of course).

And yet I live in constant fear of contamination of my beautiful new computer by the Net Evil Ones (though I have virusscan/anti-
spyware/firewall/etc on my new machine).

STORM, what is your secret? Aren't you ever tempted to download your latest DAZ purchase directly to your Poser computer? Or are you implementing your plan in a dfferent way than I am? What is your physical set up like?

Seems like you (Qualien) could use a kvm switch to use the 'net box without having to move. Alternatively, a remote control program could accomplish the same thing. I'd think you could set up networking on XP to isolate the new system effectively from any potential attacks from the old box.

lmckenzie,
Much thanks for the suggestions. I did not know that they had such things as kvm switch cables (learned about them from a google). I had thought about networking the two machines, but have never done that so it seemed a bit daunting. I know I could probably do it cheap without much work though, but I think I mentioned I'm lazy. (Cheap too.)

I would like to make the new computer really secure, would sleep a bit better I think, and I really have no other use for the old machine so I will definitely explore your ideas.

Attached Link: http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/using/networking/default.mspx

With kvm, you'd still have to find some way of transferring files, CD burner, Zip drives, etc. Also, depending on how far apart the machines are, I think kvm cables can get pricey. Networking would probably be the cheapest I think. A couple of cheap network cards and some patch cable should be well under $50.00 online. Microsoft used to have a program called NetMeeting, that would let you see the desktop of the other machine and control it with your mouse/keyboard. I think it's now called 'Remote Desktop' on XP. http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/using/mobility/getstarted/remoteintro.mspx) The article refers to the internet but you should be able to do the same thing on a local network. The networking part should be pretty easy, stick in the cards, connect the cable and do some setup on the machines. MS has an article that goes through the process. I've done it so it isn't too complex or arduous, probably more trouble unscrewing case covers than anything else. You can spring for a couple of USB network adapters if you don't want that hassle. Once setup, you should be able to browse the internet on the old system via remote on the new one and then copy downloaded files via the network.

I have two computers sitting side by side. There is not enough room in my apartment for another keyboard and monitor, so I use a KVM switch to share the monitor, keyboard, mouse and speakers. To switch back and forth between computers, I hit "CTRL CTRL ENTER." The two computers are networked using the DSL router/hub. This setup works just fine, except sometimes the mouse cursor seems to freeze.

Thanks lmckenzie again and AlteredEgo too for all the info. I checked out the microsoft links and the network looks like something I could handle. Lots of times MS webpages haven't been too helpful but the networking help gives a lot of info.

I think I'll start shopping for components tomorrow (Monday). See what I can find online or at Office Depot. We don't have any sales tax here in Montana so it's nice to get stuff right away without paying shipping. Doubt if they would have KVM cable/switch but maybe I can get started on the networking. This should be fun.

Attached Link: http://www.tigerdirect.com/

I've been doing a lot of business with TigerDirect lately. You might say the UPS man and I are good friends. You can get the KVM switch at TigerDirect. You may not need to do much work to network the computers. Windows XP has always found my Internet connection, and I do believe it found the other computers on the network. Beyond that you need to deal with File and Printer sharing, etc.

Message edited on: 03/06/2005 12:45 PS: I've been sold on AMD processors for many years. I currently have and AMD Duron, and an Athlon XP 2900+.

Message edited on: 03/06/2005 12:46

I've had pretty good luck with TigerDirect as well. You can get one of the networking 'Kits' to make it easy. If you b uy two cards and cable, make sure the cable is a "patch" cable used to connect two computers directly, otherwise you'll need a hub to go through. Hopefully, it'll be a painless and fun experience for you.

I looked at PC Club, and found their selection very limited, and expensive, when compared to TigerDirect. When thinking of networking, look at the Big Picture first. Do you have broadband? If so, you might already have or get a combination modem/hub, which will handle your network needs nicely. When we had a cable modem, I bought a NetGear wireless hub because my wife's computer is upstairs, while mine was downstairs. When we got DSL, we got a modem/hub combined, and I just installed a wireless network card in my computer. Many new computers over the years come with builtin NIC cards as well. If you don't have a hub, they're inexpensive.

When I was shopping for my new computer I almost got one from Tiger Direct. I ended up getting one from Puget Sound Computers which is one of those places where you check off a list of what you want and they put it together for you.

The networking kit sounds like a good idea. I'll check into the modem/hub too. I have a cable modem now but am going to have to go back to dial-up probably when I move, and I didn't get a modem in the new machine.

I like AMD too. After I saw what other people were saying about AMD CPUs and got the new computer, I sold my Intel stock and bought AMD, like Peter Lynch said, if you like the product consider buying stock in the company (just hope AMD's failing flash mem business doesn't hurt their bottom line too much or they can sell it).

Again, thanks for all the info. Has given me a real good idea of how to get started and what to look for (just in time probably, even though I don't go on sites that look like they could possibly be dirty and get email on the old computer, I got my first virus on my new computer today - guess she's not a virgin any more - can't seem to avoid the spyware either).

You might want to get the Microsoft AntiSpyware Beta. It's an excellent product. Not really a beta so to speak, they just bought it from another company. I used the demo of the program when Giant owned it and it was the only thing that got rid of a nasty homepage hijacker. I use the freeware AntiVir and it seems to do a good job of blocking any viruses. You may be using the XP firewall but you might look at the free ZoneAlarm if you haven't already.

I'll give MS AntiSpyware a try. I have two different spyware progs now and they both detect spywares the other one misses. I wonder how many elude both of them.

I'm using McAfee firewall, not too happy with their products any more, will check out the ZoneAlarm. I am getting excited about the network idea, always been a lone-PC kind of guy. Maybe I'll end up attaching all my appliances and my furnace thermostat and garage door and my goldfish bowl to my network like those people in Wired magazine.

Message edited on: 03/06/2005 20:23

Right now I'm using a computer that was put together from a barebones kit from TigerDirect. I bought the hard drives locally, but that's all. Right next to this computer is another one with yet more TigerDirect parts.

Ive got Spybot & AdAware. Nice thing about MS is that it's always running, prevents browser hijacks etc.