"Might surpise you, but I actually agree with you, Dale. Especially on given the ancient code based that wasn't designed to interface with the new coding, I think they did wonderfuly to get SR4 stable. And that's not a slap - it's an honest assessment of the coding problems from someone who used to play wih code." Doesn't surprise me a bit. I know from past talk that you are an old school coder, like I used to be, and have a clue just how much baggage a Mac to Win 3.1 port created, and how hard it was to dig out (probably why they went to the Win2k spec finally; better memory management and just truncate about half the issues by amputating the 9x codebase). And it is honest. "Same time, that "Don't prejudge" crap that people keep spouting cuts both ways. Agree?" Definitely. That was why =I= got into it. There was a decided overbalance of the 'P5 Suxxor!! Die Cl Die!!!' cannula drippings oozing back to the surface, along with the 'Trust me fools, wait until it's available on Ebay for $5. Only an idiot pre-orders' yadda-yadda-belch-fart. "However, the skeptics have a lot more weight of experience on their side than the optimists. ;] Especially since a lot of the business model history looks to be repeating itself." They do? They have one blown release out of five. And from my memory, a lot of the pre-release cheerleading was being done by some of the same individuals referenced above. And in any case, you know the software business if you used to code. A new release that doesn't sell for a few months will sink -any- company... Remember the panic M$ experienced when all those twinkies who'd found Win2k didn't upgrade to XP? And all those subtle 'changes for security's sake' that essentially will attempt to force people to upgrade and pay no matter what their preferences? "There's an easy way to get me out of the discussion: the CL apologists can back the fuck up and let the buyers make up their minds without them running interference for CL. Let CL do their own PR. Let CL make their own announcements, without the forum weasel brigade advance selling it for them. Wait and see what they actually deliver, rather than encuraging people to pre-order on hype. Let them actually show if they've learned anything, and if they're serious about making good on their past fiascos. Let them deliver, or not. Then determine what to do if it's "Not"." I don't see statements like 'factor in the fact that the company is in the hands of an actual graphics production firm with quite a few years existance and a reputation in a rather demanding market' as being apologistic. Nor do I think I've been out cheerleading others to do anything but look at =all= the facts before deciding. Not just whichever group is being cutest. I'd be willing to zip it on the 'Don't prejudge P6 on what happened with P5 2 years and two distinct management teams ago' if the CL haters would do likewise. Twasn't I who drew steel first, good sir. There have been no 'California Dreaming' threads this go around; all the noise has pretty much been from the spiritual bastard offspring of NaySayGuy (sorry Doc... :P ), with the CL fanclub and middle of the roadies chiming in after the 734 day old monkey feces has been thrown at the rotary impeller yet -again-. Besides, you're unknown to a whole generation here O:) "Don't want to wait for that, get ready to deal with the old wolves like me that don't like seeing the community shafted with the tacit and implict aid of its own." That cuts both ways; deliberately wrecking CL when they may have gotten their act back together and be ready to rock will be shafting the community even worse. Hell, for what little I'm paying I don't mind being a test subject. Gives me a little running start on the learning curve...