...more specifically the "Ecosystem" aspects of the program.

I am concerned by the use of the following phrase on e-on's website:

"E-on software's new EcoSystem technology is patented (patent pending). You will not find comparable technologies in other 3D applications!"

This is entirely untrue, as there are a number of other software products that can achieve ecosystem distribution more powerfully than Vue 5 Infinite. In addition, they have (in some cases) been available since before Vue was even publically released in '95...

Don't get me wrong - Infinite is interesting enough for me to be considering purchasing it as a supplementary tool (the lack of GIS support would cause me problems if I chose it as my primary terrain software). However, given that E-on are not replying to my comments, publically or otherwise, I am loathe to give them over 400 of my hard-earned cash if this sort of inaccurate advertising is the way in which they choose to market the product.

I am posting here in the hope that someone from E-On might actually respond (privately or otherwise) and clarify the above comments. Given my experiences so far, I do not hold out much hope...

Regards

Adam

Infinite is not even released and you know exactly how the Ecosystem method is done? And how powerful it is? Can you please let us know as well? Would be great.

Well I know it is not as powerful as some other systems out there, just from the releases on the E-On Website. There is plenty of info there if you bother to read it, and also some example videos showing ecosystem stuff on the video downloads section of the site. Seems I am more informed than some Vue users... ;)

Good for you. I would wait until i have it in hand. To see how powerful it really is. Maybe E-on has only a bad marketing writer? Or has chosen only some not so interesting stuff? We all will see maybe even next week. The 14th comes closer!

What are these more powerful systems and how much do they cost?

Before you condemn Vue, you really should try it to see if it is what you are looking for. Eon offers a free demo for download. You really should try it out.

Let's wait on release of Infinite to see its real potential - actually such discussion is pointless. I saw e-on website about Vue and for me it looks very interesting - and if it is simple as previous versions of Vue it will be a great competitor to such programs as dying Bryce, Terragen or Mojo. Lets wait and see

Rids - an example of more powerful ecosystem controlling software would include World Construction Set from 3D Nature. It costs $500 (about 375 Euro) ie: a little cheaper than Vue Infinite. Shari - no need to get defensive, my queries were not meant to start a flame war re. the pros and cons of Vue. Nor do I remember "condemning" the product as you suggest. I already know how Vue works - I have already evaluated it in multiple versions. In addition, I have over a decade of experience using a wide variety of terrain rendering and animation products, so please do not assume that I am a 1 product user who wants to "attack" E-On or Vue...this is simply not the case. Until v5 Infinite, the software was not powerful enough for my use and I already own other more expensive 3D Products that render faster, so would not have used Vue as my primary 3D rendering engine, as do some people on this forum. Now that Vue5 Infinite may have the strengths that it used to lack in certain areas (mass foliage distribution controls) I am simply questioning E-On's marketing claims, as they raise concerns as to how much of the other claims about Vue5 Infinite I can trust. Given that Vue 5 has none of the features of Infinite that interested me in the first place, downloading the demo is not really going to tell me any more about Infinite than the 4.x or 3.x demos did... Sorry to have caused offense in my attempts to get my questions answered - I am pleased if Vue does what you want it to do for you. I am concerned that inaccurate statements on the website re. the exclusivity of E-on foliage distribution routines may conceal more pervasive inaccuracies in the press release about Infinite that I will only discover by purchasing the product. 411 is a lot of money to spend on a product only to find that it does nothing more than my existing software toolset does....I hope any reasonable Vue user would agree. E-On's lack of comment on these issues does nothing to instill me with confidence... Regards Adam

PFrank - this was never meant to be a discussion about the features of Vue5 Infinite, but a query as to why E-On were stonewalling my questions re. the validity of the statement I quoted in my original post. AFAIK, the statement is entirely inaccurate, and raised concerns with me when I was researching a potential purchase. I have since decided to delay buying Vue5 until such time as E-On deign to grace me with a reply or explanation of what I would consider worryingly inaccurate (and morally dubious) marketing behaviour... Again...for anyone out there who is using this thread as a reason to feel offended at my attacking their favorite software - I am NOT making negative comments about Vue, or E-On, but simply questioning (IMHO false) claims made by the company on their website about one aspect of the Vue5 Infinite featureset. Ironically, the Ecosystem(TM) feature is the one most interesting to me (and the lack of which has caused me not to purchase Vue before now). So I'm sorry of you disagree, but I feel this sort of discussion is entirely relevant, especially given the lack of feedback from E-On themselves so far. Regards Adam

This is crunch time. I would be willing to bet that between the preprocessing of orders, and the last minute bugfixes the beta testers are no doubt beating out of the release candidate, they probably have little to no time free. Add to that what's usually in involved in NDA's. The beta testers can't talk yet, no one at E-on can talk yet. As for the accuracy of the statement, it may -not- be false. If they are using an in house developed method that others have not used, then it is true. But they would be fools to mention even tertiary details of a patentable technology, privately or Ghod forbid on a public Internet forum, until they had that patent registered.

Thanks for the objective reply Dale - much appreciated. I agree with you that it is a possibility that NDAs and pre-release schedules may be crippling the usual responsiveness of some E-On employees. In an ideal world, this would not stop someone from replying to let me know that they were too busy to reply in full, or under NDA or whatever...I am almost always under some sort of software NDA, but always make time to reply to concerns from potential clients, even if I can not let them know about specifics. As far as the accuracy of the statement on their website, I am afraid I disagree with you. The phrase "You will not find comparable technologies in other 3D applications!" is definitely inaccurate. If they had said "You will not find OUR technologies in other software", now that would be accurate ;) "Comparable" technologies (based on what we have been shown of them so far) do exist in other software. I will have to await release to see the exact controls that E-On consider so proprietary, but if (as I suspect) they will simply be related to material-blending (as suggested in the ecosystem videos on their site) then this sort of technology (ie: a "comparable" technology) as well as more powerful versions of this sort of thing, definitely already exist. Regards Adam

I just had a good look at WCS and it does look very impressive, it will be interesting to see how VI measures up :-)

Interesting thread. I have to wonder if WCS is behind this type of questioning. There seems to be some double talk in the replies and the concern is over one word in the marketing? Let's see don't want to be offensive or start a flame war, and yet the accusation is: inaccurate (and morally dubious) marketing behavior... Why not just give them a call I am sure some one can answer your concerns at e-on. To come into a Vue forum and make accusations and claim knowledge on a product that has not even been released seem morally dubious to me and has hidden agenda written all over it. Thx Vance

I for one also found that particular marketing statement to be questionable and wanted some further details. I've simply assumed that waiting for release would be the best way to find out, but I certainly don't disagree with raising it as an issue and wanting to discuss it beforehand. The fact is I too am a lot more interested in Vue considering the Infinite feature set. But I have similar concerns to Adam and I also hope E-On will answer these sorts of questions soon. - Oshyan

I again find it a very strange discussion. All i can see is vague guesses and presumptions here. And this should be the base of a serious discussion? Again, strange. NO company will explain details of features before the product is even on the market. NO company. Would you in your business? I am sure you will not. E-on will not and the beta testers are not allowed. So what do you expect?

Like I said, I was planning to wait until the release. Having been a part of many beta tests before, I know how it works quite well. It sounds like Adam does as well. I think his particular issue - and I share this to some degree, although I think it is a more common practice than he seems to - is the specific claim that no other product has comparable technologies. That is in my experience a fairly common marketing claim, and it's most often quite dubious. I'm sure they have some kind of logical justification for the claim, but whether it would actually agree with a more objective comparison of these features with those of applications like World Construction Set and World Builder is questionable. In any case I agree it's fairly useless speculation right now, especially when release is so very close. :) - Oshyan

*"E-on software's new EcoSystem technology is patented (patent pending). You will not find comparable technologies in other 3D applications!"

This is entirely untrue, as there are a number of other software products that can achieve ecosystem distribution more powerfully than Vue 5 Infinite. In addition, they have (in some cases) been available since before Vue was even publically released in '95...*

Hi Adam,

I am also wondering why this "Ecosystem" deserves a patent pending. From the description at e-on software and the examples, this "system" seems to be an advanced instancing tool. There is nothing special about that.

Placing clones of an object on a surface according to procedural noises, elevation, proximity of objects or any other "input data" is something that can be done in many applications (it's even a standard feature in pro particles engines). Modulating the density, color, scale or rotation of the instances with the same kind of data is also a very common feature.

The DiCloner plugin for Cinema 4D, the Placer Deposit plugin for Electric Image are just two examples of similar tools. Cebas' Thinking Particles (a rule-based particle systems for Cinema 4D and 3DS max) is also capable of doing this (and much more!). There are dozens of other examples, from crowd simulation engine to fur system, etc...

Unless there are some hidden features in this "EcoSystem", the sentence "You will not find comparable technologies in other 3D applications!" is for me a mystery...

Anyway, I'm sure that VUE users will find this cloning tool very useful :)

"To come into a Vue forum and make accusations and claim knowledge on a product that has not even been released seem morally dubious to me and has hidden agenda written all over it."

Sorry Vance, I don't agree with you. Adam's concern is valid. It's e-on software statement that is rather strange... "You will not find comparable technologies in other 3D applications!". Well, I can do with other 3D applications everything that is written in the "Breakthrough EcoSystem Technology" feature list. So, I think we have the right to ask ourselves questions.

:) Eric

I agree with Vance (his answer has disappeared), it is really strange thread...
I can't believe someone can be so concerned by the communication of a company! Who care about what a company said? We all know that every company claims to be the best in its category, so what is the matter?
"Comparable" is a vague term...
The only one I trust in is me... but not too often;) Don't trust anybody!

Message edited on: 03/10/2005 17:13

"E-on software's new EcoSystem technology is patented (patent pending). You will not find comparable technologies in other 3D applications!"

It's just the way to create a huge hype around your product. Anyone can ask for a patent, but a lot of times it's not granted. Wouldn't be surprised if E-On doesn't get patent on it at all.

All of these 'smaller' companies like E-On, Curious Labs and DAZ need to create a huge hype around their products, otherwise half of the people that do buy would have never bought them.

Most people around here fall for these kind of hypes, are crazy enough to pre-order (without knowing what their getting into at all), only to find out they've bought something they will not use at all.

There are lot's of Vue users who never really use it for something serious at all. They're are lot's of Poser users who hardly ever use it all. Most people buying stuff at DAZ never even use it. All fell for one big hype.....

I don't even get the point of pre-ordering Vue 5 Infinite at all. What's the benefit to pre-ordering at E-On? At least at Curious Labs they give you a special deal when pre-ordering....

If E-On, DAZ, Curious Labs wouldn't be creating such hypes, they wouldn't sell half the stuff they do.

I'm not even sure if the EcoSystem will be half as good as claimed and I'm doubting it will really run well on the specs they give you. Perhaps if you render a small 320x240 image with final settings. E-On apps never run well on the specs they give you anyway. I always find a new release of Vue dissapointing, they always seem to add tons of features to the new version that I'm never ever going to use at all. HDRI, GI and so on are really great, but I'm not going to wait 3 days for a render, knowing that I'll have to do at least another 30 for the same project.

I'm afraid the EcoSystem will be equally dissappointing to me as most of the new Vue 5 features. All this new fancy stuff always needs a new fancy pc or else it's just not fun to work with.

I'm also having the feeling that this whole EcoSystem will be one huge dissappointment for people who lack the newest hardware.....

I'm also absolutely not impressed with the city animation they showcase at all. I wonder why they didn't do the same with trees. Even now in Vue 5 I can create a huge city only using simple blocks without a much trouble, using scatter and duplicate. You don't need billions of polygons for that..... I know for sure my pc isn't able to cope with 72 billion polygons anyway, no matter how clever you create the system, that is beyond it's current capacities.

By the way, I looked at World Construction Set from 3D Nature, it's pretty nice, but most of the stuff in the galleries hardly compares the some of the stuff seen in the Vue galleries. I know Vue lacks a number of features (which for some reason E-On seems to not be willing to implement them), but the renders created in Vue look lots better then those shown at 3D Nature..... Message edited on: 03/10/2005 18:24

What other 3D apps? That is why they can say that. They are often compared with Bryce, who does not have such a system. Now if they said, not found in other 3D apps like World Construction Kit, then there could be something said. It's maybe a little misleading, but it is the truth as there are 3D apps that do not have an ecosystem. It's like when 3 radio stations claim they are number #1, which is true, but in different age markets (but they forget to mention that part).

I don't see what is the big deal. How many companies out there claim they are the 'industry leader' in their category. It is coming to the point where it doesn't matter any more. When everybody is the leader about something, well... nobody really is. I just looked at WCS website and I found the same kind of claim that most companies have on their website. Nothing new there... although I was impressed by the way volumetric clouds look like with that soft. And yes... on the surface, their ecosystem does look like e-on's, at least in the way it works from a user's point of view. I don't know enough about the inner workings of e-on's to really tell if their claim is justified or not.

For those of use with VuePro, a discount to $149 is a significant benefit to pre-ordering. And maybe you should wait and =see= how the system actually operates...or at least wait until the NDA is lifted enough for the testers (those who have actually touched and used the system in question)to comment openly. As to the Cityscape flyover...What exactly is impressive? Well, lets see. Those are -not- Vue native models; they are 100% Poser-fied OBJs and textures. No tesselation, as Mobius 87's Dystopia freebies are not high poly enough to prevent faceting of the cylinders by that process. Those modules were dispersed across multiple terrains. Phoul has said previously that he does not use particularly high end hardware. That shot was done with something that probably didn't even qualify as a release candidate at the time it must have been made, so the memory management involved has to be something that is almost a quantum leap from previous incarnation of Vue. Sounds mildly impressive to me. Never mind all the other things they threw in there, as well...

How much is it if I don't preorder to upgrade from VuePro? Little wary after the last time...

Message edited on: 03/10/2005 19:56

And take a close look at the images with trees made by Ecosystem. They are not clones of each other, but variants built by the Solid Growth system. So you aren't getting instances of -one- growth of a plant; you seem to get the kind of plant variation as if you had generated and plopped down X number of plants manually.

www.e-onsoftware.com/Products/vue5infinite/prices.php Here's the beef!

I doubt you know more about this than people in this forum N-Light and that statement might be why people are taking it as a hostile attitude. As stated by others. E-on is very busy getting ready to roll out Infinite. I do know from emails that they are swamped with pre-orders right now. They are not a very big company and that probably is taking most of their time along with getting everything ready. I would recommend patience. Especially if you are going to wait anyway. Plus, as stated, beta testers can not post anything so you are not going to hear a whole lot from anyone yet on features other than what is stated on e-ons site. I would recommend waiting and trying a demo when available. That way you can judge for yourself. Not trying to attack you here, just stating that you might want to judge for yourself since you seem to have knowledge of a lot of other software as you said. Then you can do a real comparison.

Actually that doesn't answer the question that you are implying Dale B. Whether the price will be raised right after March 14th? What do they consider a limited time?

I can talk a little about this as I use both Vue (at home) and World Construction Set (at work). They really have two different purposes, so for n-light to answer his/her question he'll have to think about what he needs. I'm a GIS person and I use World Construction Set for visualizations of potential outcomes of forest management. It's renderer is not near as nice as Vue's. It does however populate and render large areas with 2D images of trees or whatever you want very quickly. Integration with GIS is not near as good in WCS - nor is it intended to be -(although you can pull in DEMS and other GIS layers in WCS to develop your image) as it is in the company's other product which was built to be fully integrated with GIS - Visual Nature Studio - which is very costly (between $1500 - $2000/seat I think). You can animate in all three programs. You can use 3d images generated in other programs (trees, etc.) for foreground detail in both WCS and VNS. WCS v6 doesn't come with any 3d trees or vegetation - I'm not sure about VNS. For images leaning more towards art, I personally would choose Vue. For images where I need exact, real world placement of items on the terrain I would use WCS or VNS. It will be interesting to see just how much capability Vue 5 Infinite has in this regard.

One little item that has been left out: World Construction Set has a VERY steep learning curve (as does World Builder) whereas the Vue product line is MUCH easier to understand. I've used World Builder, World Construction Set and Vue - Vue is by far the easiest program to learn hands down. Regarding the so-called instancing of objects. The fact is... at least right now... that none of us here (beta testers not withstanding) know exactly how this system works. Until we get to "play" with it ourselves, we won't really know how easy it is. It may be completely different from WCS and do things that WCS can't. The fact is... WE DON'T KNOW. So is a short response to Adam, you really don't know if that particular technology IS something that WCS or others offer. But I do think it's a pretty safe bet that it will be significantly easier than WCS. We must wait and see. Megalodon

V5I does something that other apps can't do without plug-ins.

I remember hearing that if you are advertising a new brand of toothpaste for instance, you can say it performs "better than other brands" but you can't say "it's the best" (for legal-ese reasons that escape me at the moment). So to quote Obi-Wan, E-on's claim that "You will not find comparable technologies in other 3D applications!" could be true, from a certain point of view. Post-script: squid69 is exiled from the Vue forums for left field comments LOL

I have to wonder if WCS is behind this type of questioning. There seems to be some double talk in the replies and the concern is over one word in the marketing? Interesting. I seem to recall an "Adam Hauldren" making presentations for WCS. So, maybe WCS is behind this after all... I'm with you on that one, Vance.

To me World Construction Set scenes displayed on their website look simply lame - no comparison with high quality, photorealistic pictures e-on showed. Maybe poor guys from WCS have not enough time to prepare nice scenes? I doubt - in domain of ecosystems Vue is going to rule the world - you'll see!

??? I don't understand the problem at all, who cares if the same kind of solution exist and even have existed in other application 10 years ago. I can se what it can do, so I want it, and now I will get it in my favorite Landscape render;)

I agree HellBorn - looks like a great program and I can't wait 'til I can afford it!

It's just that some people think they KNOW exactly what E-On is trying to sell when they really don't know. I understand what Adam is saying - and he may be correct - but we won't know until the product ships and/or and E-On representative responds. I'm betting that this is a new way of dealing with "instancing" since we are seeing millions of objects being rendered without (as far as I can tell) a huge render time hit. You really can't do this in WCS, WB or even Lightwave for that matter. In LW we have HD Instance but even that takes a decent time to render if you've got lots of objects - not as much as if they were actual 3D objects, but it still adds time. I am VERY much looking forward to getting into Infinite - it's looking promising, moreso than Vue4Pro did at the time. We shall see... :) Megalodon

Attached Link: http://3dnworld.com/class.php#TRAINING

Ditto TROC....the renders over at 3dnature are quite lame...I noticed quite a few with poorly tubed trees..black specs floating about, part of the leaves/branches cut into and a lot them look as though they were floating & they didn't match the lighting environment. OTOH...the clouds looked great.

I'll refer to Agiel & others. Its like Tide(the detergent)...every year it's new & improved & the best. Yet my clothes are just as clean now as they have been for the past 45 years LOL. It's called marketing ;).

All that said...why is it here as of late, everyone feels the need to pick apart every single word that is written. Analyzing to death everything....Feels like I'm watching FOX News 3d graphics Channel(and not just this forum)...with pundits, yakking & tearing apart everything & if this & if that. It's getting old. The preverbial beating of the dead horse...at this point is there even a horse left to beat?

I eagerly await my copy of V5I....I should say impatiently wait.

Message edited on: 03/11/2005 17:29

Wow Vance, guess Adam isn't going to comeback now. Well researched!

Some people have way too much time on their hands....in regards to Adam....maybe time would be better spent improving/learning......... Yeah....the jig is up >:(

...more specifically about being "the best terrain visualization software packages available". I am concerned by the use of the following phrase on 3D nature's website: "World Construction Set and Visual Nature Studio are widely recognized as the best terrain visualization software packages available. With them you can model, render and animate natural and manmade environments of any size and complexity with complete photorealism." This is entirely untrue, as there are a number of other software products that can achieve complete photorealism more powerfully than World Construction Set. In addition, they have (in some cases) been available since before WCS was even publically released in '94... Don't get me wrong - WCSis interesting enough for me to be considering purchasing it as a supplementary tool (the lack of Multithreaded and Poser support would cause me problems if I chose it as my primary character rendering software). However, given that 3D Nature does not have a support forum, public or otherwise, I am loathe to give them over $500 of my hard-earned cash if this sort of inaccurate advertising is the way in which they choose to market the product. I am posting here in the hope that someone from 3D Nature might actually respond (privately or otherwise) and clarify the above comments. Given the previous comments so far, I do not hold out much hope... Regards Agiel

Sorry... I could not resist :) The point being - this kind of announcement can be made for any product and company. 3D Nature claims it has the best and most photorealistic software. e-on claims there is no comparable technology out there. In the end, the only thing that matter is what you can really do with the software. Not who is the best.

~claps~ for Agiel...Thank You & ditto :) Back to my Tide reference...if it's new & improved year after year...does that mean all of us were walking around in filthy clothes for years...I think NOT ;). Back to thumb twiddling waiting for V5I to arrive at my office..... There is NO way...I would fork out $500 for a program that looks worse than what I can do in PSP8/9...Thank you very much :D...;P

Wow. Interesting thread.

Looks like Vance_Max smelled him out. My hat's off to you for suspecting that something was rotten in Denmark right away.

I wonder if anyone named "Adam" actually did make any inquiries to e-on?

Oh, well......I suppose that we'll never know.

*Most people around here fall for these kind of hypes, are crazy enough to pre-order (without knowing what their getting into at all), only to find out they've bought something they will not use at all.

There are lot's of Vue users who never really use it for something serious at all. They're are lot's of Poser users who hardly ever use it all. Most people buying stuff at DAZ never even use it. All fell for one big hype.....*

I, for one -- absolutely LOVE hype!

Especially when I buy the products, and then am then very happy with them. Which usually is the case for me.....with a few rare exceptions. But even those rare exceptions don't ruin my day.

I am irritatingly optimistic. And glad to be.

$149.00 up from Vue4Pro is dirt cheap. I jumped on that one right away, you betcha.

As for not having the hardware to handle V5I (or any other new software package)......that's always a risk. Time moves on.

And, no.....I am not a professional at 3D work. It's just fun.

So......I suppose that it's justified to state that I never use the software for "anything serious".

shrug

It's a hobby. One that I enjoy. And for me -- that's all that matters.

P.S. When it comes to the pre-order hype for Vue & Poser -- I'll gladly "fall for it" every time. Call it a weakness.

It was petshoo that made me look further. Really didn't have to look too far to find out my suspicions where valid. It really doesn't make a company look very good when they are into to this type of activity. So the credit really goes to petshoo on this one. Thx Vance

Non alone Ecosystem distributes elements in the scene. I believe that also you can animate them. For that reason Ecosystem is so powerful.

To clarify, my delay in replying was due to work responsibilities, and a lack of any mails to tell me people had responded further. Initial feedback was so defensive, and comments suggested that the thread was unnecessary, strange and misplaced, so I guessed no one else would bother to reply. How wrong I was! To respond to some of the more personal (or ill-informed) comments: Vance - I don't believe I have at any point suggested that I am not a WCS user (actually VNS - WCS won't do what I want any more). I make my living from doing landscape vis work. I have always liked the look of the VUE renderer for artistic work, but never considered it viable for the sort of professional work I do - it never had the control over large-scale foliage placement and the renderer was too slow. I also use Lightwave (and have done since version 3.x). Does this mean that my questions to a list on messiah studio are uncalled for? Can I no longer ask those who (supposedly) are informed about these things. Which company were you referring to when you said "It really doesn't make a company look very good when they are into to this type of activity". Your insistence that there was some ulterior motive here continues to amaze me...believe me I DEFINITELY don't have the time to play cyber-warrior and single handedly defeat all nasty threats to my vested interest... Oh, and if I had wanted to disguise my identity, I would have simply created a arbitrary ID and associated Yahoo account, no? Let's face it, there are plenty of responses tto my posts, very few of which have even a proper name associated with them. To clarify - this was never a personal issue for me. I am so sorry that some of you find it so hard to differentiate a question from an attack. I genuinely want to buy a license of Vue 5 Infinite if it will do what I need it to do. So far no one will (or can) enlighten me. It appears that a simple query as to the validity of statements on the E-On website, after a a complete lack of feedback from E-On I resorted to posting a query here. In hindsight, what a mistake! XenoPhonz - I did contact E-On and am still awaiting a reply...and what was with the offbeat Shakespearian reference?!! Unless of course it wasn't an attempt to show how well-read you were, but rather than you genuinely thought I come from Denmark! FYI - I have no affiliation with 3D Nature except that they Have been clients of mine in the past. I resell their software, but I also resell other software too - Xfrog and Quest3D. So - I guess I can't post about Onyx Tree Pro, Plant Studio, Arbaro, Bionatics, or any realtime multimedia content creation software...thanks for the headsup... I am sorry that Vance and Petshoo felt the need to enter into a behind-the-scenes investigation...ironic after comments about how my original post was a pointless thread. For such a pointless thread, it certainly generated some knee-jerk responses, and an awful amount of time-wasting, and personal asides. But hey, if you guys have time to waste...you are welcome to spend your time in whatever fashion you choose. dlk30341 - "Some people have way too much time on their hands....in regards to Adam....maybe time would be better spent improving/learning...". Improving what, dlk? Please clarify.... dlk30341 (again) - "Yeah....the jig is up >:(" - I think I have addressed this, but you are entitled to your opinion. Agiel - your copying of my original post with minor product name changes was an immature (and irrelevant) example of this. You have simply confirmed my impression that I wasted my time expecting informed response from such a partisan forum. I agree with you that claims are made by every sw company to some extent. It was the lack of specifics and stonewalling I experienced that caused me some concern. Call it pre-purchase jitters, if you like. Your second post clearly shows that you think I was comparing the two software products as a "competition": Agiel - "In the end, the only thing that matter is what you can really do with the software. Not who is the best." Did I ever suggest that any other software was "better" than Vue? As to what one can do with the software...well, that's the exact issue I was enquiring about in the first place. What exactly can be done with it...to which I have yet to receive anything but "wait and see". I an only assume that pre-orders are designed for existing Vue customers... Anyway - thanks to those who DID try to allay my fears or give me some feedback. To those who simply took offense, I suggest you stop being so paranoid. I simply wished to find out what the deal was prior to the potential release delays so rife in the sw industry right now. Maybe I didn't approach the issue in the way (or wording) that some of you may have chosen yourselves. FOr that, I apologise. ImagineThat - I agree I know less about Vue than users on this forum. Someone who dabbled in basic common sense or logic, might have guessed that's why I enquired here, so you will forgive me if I chose to ignore your comments. I guess I am simply surprised and disappointed by those who felt the need to go on the offensive over my original comments which were non-judgemental, and simply querying a sitation I was confused about, and which to date I have received no feedback on from those to whom I enquired. Comments about the city anim, I feel were valid. I have done a similar render using Moebius's city blocks using HD Instance & LW - several billion polys worth. I agree render time with GI was prohibitive, but without any information about render times, hardware used and so on, the animations offered up so far are nothing but eye-candy. Megalodon - your comments re. the impressive nature of Vue's instanced rendering is an example of exactly this issue - we don't know how long these images take to render, so how can you say that Vue Infinite desnt suffer a render hit "like other software"? Anyway - the upshot of this rather over-extended and unfocused thread is that I am going to take the advice of the few responders who chose to attempt to address my original concerns. I shall wait until whenever E-On release a demo version of 5 Infinite and see for myself in what way the program offers revolutionary control. Thank you to those who resisted the obvious "Vue users unite against this slur on our favorite software!" responses. Your restrained and informed comments are appreciated. Nuff said (and because I have better things to be doing right now than dragging out this response any further)...if I missed anyone out and you still feel the need to respond, please feel free to contact me directly. Vance_Max or petshoo can doubtless give you my email (and telephone, and mailing address!). If you have something worth contributing to my knowledge about Vue and whether I should invest in it for specific tasks, again, I would love to hear. If you can't see that my queries were genuine, I suggest a long hard look at your own attitude to the software - maybe it classifies (apparently unhealthily so for some of you) as more than just a tool... Adam

I would like to apologize twice : - First to N-light for what looked like an immature response. I was merely trying to show that this kind of questioning about the valibility of claims from a company's website can be applied to any company as they all, to my knowledge, use the same kind of marketing talk. - Next to the rest of the forum for locking this discussion thread without giving a place for more responses. This discussion has gone far enough. Please let me know privately if you believe otherwise. Another clarification for N-light to put things in perspective. This forum has been used recently as a platform for open attacks against Vue and e-on software, with no other motive than discredit the product and the company. Please contact me privately if you want more details. The bottom line is that the negative atmosphere made a lot of people leave and made the rest more defensive to new questioning about e-on software's motives. Maybe the answers to your question were just a problem of bad timing.