Randy and all, after a long discussion yesterday with a modeller who understands joint parameters, I have become convinced that the issue with the shoulder is intrinsic to Poser. He looked long and hard at Victoria in the setup room, and at my girlfriend Judy+EJ (who as much as I like her has problem in this area) and now I am looking at the first images of Jessi -- with the shoulder bulge. The mesh bulges at the shoulder because of compromise to allow room for as much range of movement as possible --- it's a compromise/tradeoff situation. I accept this fact now and you will not hear me ranting at Daz any longer about it. He says the higher order applications such as Max/Maya/XSI etc. are more powerful and do not suffer this fate as seriously. ::::: Opera ::::