'For the money, Poser actually has a really decent materials editor and renderer' Yes, deecey. I have to agree. The material room is the best part of P5 for me. And at the price, it's almost unbeatable. I complain loudly about poser, but I'm not a CL-basher. I hope they continue for many years, and good luck to them. I just wish they would clear up some of the basic functions, is all. Almost every problem I have with poser is caused by stupid things in the interface - idiot dialogs, wrong focus, lack of undo, etc. But all in all, there's nothing like it for the money, and I'll say that equally loudly. Well.... there's daz studio, which I much prefer, but it doesn't have rigging functions (yet). Won't be long though. mac