thanx eric the second method is almost what Im trying to get done. It works with the exception that the lines are 'breaking up' instead of being continuous...and I can not combine the object with other full render models without having lines around them. I can composite them in aftereffects or photoshop, but that really wasnt what I wanted to do. I have the antialiasing set to the finest and highest settings. It doesnt break up quite as bad if I uncheck smart quads, but I need the quad setting because the vertex modeller setting gives too much detail (and not using the vertex modeller setting doesnt accomplish anything different) thus removing impact from the render. and no way can I get this to work as a texture (even with back faces rendering)...it always renders solid. It may be a result of there being so many lines in the vertex model thus making it look solid (even at very fine line settings)... this model is one I through together last week in amapi just as a quickie...its a freebee poser model. Im gearing up to do an amapi 7.5 pro tutorial dvd and am looking at all the various rendering options to add impact to the dvd presentation. tnx BT