No Maxx my definition of heavily postworked is not "murkey at best" - if you have to add stuff to a SCENE that wasn't there in the original then its postworked. Let me give you an (extreme) example of why I don't like postworked images in galleries that are categorised by applications. I render a couple of images in Poser. Composite them together and tag on some realistic shadows (rendered separately) using the technique you mention above. Composite it on a Terragen produced background (complete with your nice 'postworked' shadows) and post it in the Poser Gallery. Someone comes along that doesn't have Poser and says, "Gee, Poser can do all that - must get me that application!" Or you post it in the Terragen Gallery and someone says "Gee, Terragen can have realistic people in front of natural looking backgrounds? Wow, must get me that application." See what I mean? Also, WHY would anyone want to post in a gallery that is exclusively for non-postworked images and then 'cheat' by doing a bit of postwork on it. That person would have nothing to gain - since everyone is using the same package. We push the applications to its limits and then ask the manufacturers to add the stuff into it that can only be solved at present by postwork. That way the next version becomes even more powerful and needs less Postwork. Why do we bother asking CL and the like for additional features like IBL, Radiosity etc, accurately modelled hair etc. if we are not interested in the package doing this. Surely the goal of a 3D package is to produce a realistic image out-of-the-box that properly casts shadows, folds cloth in the right places and makes hair look natural. If we are going to paint these on, then 3D packages and Poser in particular has matured as far as it needs to. Ok enough ranting from me, you have the floor...