operaguy I am using ambient occulsion and image based lighting which is maybe why the render takes so long. i can render without raytrace etc. without a problem but obviously I need it for reflections. Problem was, from the time it was working to the time it started looking like this, I just changed some lighting to spot light and then back. For some reson whatever I did upset the firefly renderer. I think I need to go back to a working version and try changing things one at a time. I don't think I can get rid of the lines as it is a throwback to P5, but I'm very annoyed CL hasn't fixed this yet.