Aye, mental ray IS a standalone renderer, but it is fully integrated inside of Maya as of version 5. I use version 6.5 Unlimited now, and it's quite devastating. Although it IS a plugin, you don't have to transfer anything around in Maya, and you don't have to rematerialize anything anymore, Incarnadine... I've read that XSI is even better at it's implementation, but you're wrong about mental ray in this regard... But I totally agree with you about Bryce! And I stand by them needing to skip version 8...!