Aye, it's really good to have you with us Kathye! Your expertise in this and other areas is a great boon to the community... I finally got Java to take over in place of PowerArchiver (if you haven't seen it, it's simply the most powerful .zip/.rar program available and free to use)... So now I'm off to make some killer trees! And just in time, too. I think we're all just about sick of the Treelab by now, it's very limited and has never looked natural to me. One thing I might add : If you want to use the Treelab in conjunction with such things, or with anything else, one way to rig it is to go into your modeler (Rhino, Wings, whatever...) and import your tree file. Now make a small sphere, and place it where you would like the Treelab tree to "grow" from, like on a bare branch or trunk top. Duplicate this sphere, and set it back so that the second sphere and the first form your orientation, or the direction you'd like your tree to grow. Now import the whole thing into Bryce, and select your first sphere. Convert the sphere using the Edit Palette's convert "arrow" to a Treelab tree. Then simply go into the treelab tree's Attribute dialogue, and Target the tree on it's -y axis to our second sphere, and then BOOM! You've got treelab-style greenery/branches exactly where you need them...! (just a side-note, really, sorry if it's too OT) You know what's weird, after thinking on and typing tree so many times, the word sure seems strange now... (grins) T-R-E-E? WHAT?!?!