hi degal, thanks for your reply, i'm not sure i have anything to add atm also i have spent all morning here and i really ought to do something else :) and thanks nick too. yes, i have no idea whether what i do is any good or not, if the hot 20 and comments are a measure then i think most of my work must be a bit crappy. i've tried doing stuff with eggs but it's just not me. :) i think also i may be obesssing a bit now and it is time for a break/do something else sort of thing. thanks for your comments and support.