Joe... You 'ARE' da Man... It all seems pretty obvious stuff now that it is explained this way. If you haven't already I would suggest posting this in a fresh thread to the significant forums. I.e 'Poser', 'Max' 'Tech' etc.... BTW... I am still having crashes in Max 3.1 when animating using clothes figures and props, but ok with just figure and hair. This happens when I go to render. It all seems fine with non anim scenes... Thanks again Joe... Colm...