Thanx for the kind words Hawkfyr,thought long and hard about my setting before I started as I figured the standard was so high I needed to do something original to try an stand out from the crowd:) might try that patch render option you mentioned in an earlier post to dull the sun (never even new it existed,thanx)as I dont fancy a full re-render,have a 1000 thunderbird an it still took 4 hours!