@ quest, Thanks for the clearification. Perhaps next time I should read through all the posts before I post to keep clear where Im jumping in (this is a bad habit of mine) I can simpathize with many of the older artists and there view. Ive been a member here for about 2 yrs now. Have seen more than enough of these ppl come here stir up this kind of unrest among those here that wish to help the newer artist learn and develope. And under normal cercumstances I would leave this be. I tend to walk the shadows of these forms but LSD your retoric has even brought me out to the light of day. LSD you need to mature ALOT to make the statemnets you've made because your timeing and choice of words needs ALOT of refinement. You made a qoute I think hoping to sound wise. But your underestimating the inteligence and maturity of the ppl you address. I HAVE thought long and hard of my ancestors. Our tribes did many things that seemed barbaric to use your terms, the Lacota would cut 100 squares of flesh from there own arms or legs to morn the loss of a loved one for example. But Thats how things were done then. (side note: we NEVER had holy wars or a war over simple opinion. We would fight for servival of the trib for food or shelter). I have to agree with Bandolin, and not to sound redundant, I think you have not pondered at proper deepth (sp? sorry dislexias kickin in) that wich you are trying to qoute. IF so you would not have choosin to pick this form at this time to voice these thoughts. all good intentions aside.