"I always have to smile when people talk about realism" You can smile all you like, Aeneas. I have never assumed or imagined for a second that V3 is 'realistic'. I only care whether the meshes I use fulfill the function I need them for. As a matter of fact I fairly seldom use V3. When such things as the disastrous armpit crease on V3 are wrong (wayyy too high), I fix it in post. I would certainly have preferred a mesh that didn't have this problem as much, but V3 has other advantages that make her useable anyway. As you rightly conclude, the Poser method for building meshes and joints has its limitations. :] Fish