I have to admit that when I first started out with Apo I just used other people's starter flames to get going, so I suppose they do have their use for 'newbies'. However, I couldn't get over the feeling that if I used someone else's flame to start with then the image wasn't 100% mine and soon realised how easy it is to make your own anyway - so I agree with Keith - you don't need them Patti. Funny how I don't have the same feeling using someone's UF formulas - just as well really 'cos I wouldn't know where to start writing my own and have no interest in learning how to do it. M

We don't cease to play because we grow old, we grow old because we cease to play.